D&D 5E 5e has everything it needs for Dark Sun

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Except in Dark Sun. Dark Sun cares too much about where it comes from. Dark Sun wants to ban divine, corrupt arcane, limit primal and others and exalt psionics. Which doesn't work with 5e because there is no link between these terms and how the game handles magic
Dark Sun is a official setting where hard defined supernatural and mundane power sources are 100% canon. Possibly it and 4e Nentir Vale are the only ones.
 

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Faolyn

(she/her)
You're not interacting with an thinking rock. You are using your thoughts to create energy which has the ability to interact with matter and lift it.

It's either that or midichlorians. Take your pick or force-arm wrestle it out.
 


ChaosOS

Legend
I will say, I don't get why people feel a terrible need to shoehorn 5e FR cosmology (The Weave, Shadowfell/Feywild) into Dark Sun. Dark Sun is not FR, the core books present the FR cosmology as a starter set of assumptions because it hews closest to "classic fantasy" assumptions. The Grey is the Grey, the Black is the Black. I will say I like how 4e incorporated "the lands between the wind" for the feywild and some of the primordial/god lore as possible backgrounds, but Dark Sun is explicitly not a setting that's intended to feature great bouts of planar travel.
 

Remathilis

Legend
Because the real definition of divine magic is that it can be taken away. If you don't do what your God wants or you break your oath your power goes away. The divine soul sorcerer has that divine spark inside of himself so that power cannot be taken away.

Ignoring for DM fiat, there is no rule in D&D for losing your class powers. Not for clerics, druids, paladinr or warlocks. It's a fine house-rule, and it's kinda implied sorta-in Oathbreaker paladins, but RAW there is no mechanic in play that takes away your spellcasting.

Which is part of the problem with this exercise; we're still applying definitions to spellcasting that no longer is universally applicable. When Dark Sun was created, there were only two Spellcaster groups: Priest and Wizard so it was easy to lump everything arcane into the Wizard group and everything Divine under Priest. Likewise, 3e precisely defined Arcane and Divine as having innate qualities (like Arcane Spell Failure or Divine Focus components) and 4e lived and died by power-source and role. But 5e has no such structures and even less consistency.

Dark Sun is going to have to force that structure onto 5e, and it's not going to be an easy fit. It will either have to do that class by class (and ignore areas where power-source changes, like the aberrant mind or divine soul) or do so by subclass and be outdated the minute a new book with subclasses in it is released. Neither is as clean as the older editions, but that's the price we paid for having 14 classes try to do the job of 30+ from editions past...
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I will say, I don't get why people feel a terrible need to shoehorn 5e FR cosmology (The Weave, Shadowfell/Feywild) into Dark Sun. Dark Sun is not FR, the core books present the FR cosmology as a starter set of assumptions because it hews closest to "classic fantasy" assumptions. The Grey is the Grey, the Black is the Black. I will say I like how 4e incorporated "the lands between the wind" for the feywild and some of the primordial/god lore as possible backgrounds, but Dark Sun is explicitly not a setting that's intended to feature great bouts of planar travel.
The Weave exists everywhere in the 5e multiverse per RAW. It might not be called the weave, and might interact differently, but it exists in Dark Sun unless specific beats general when(and if) they put the book out.
 

Remathilis

Legend
I will say, I don't get why people feel a terrible need to shoehorn 5e FR cosmology (The Weave, Shadowfell/Feywild) into Dark Sun. Dark Sun is not FR, the core books present the FR cosmology as a starter set of assumptions because it hews closest to "classic fantasy" assumptions. The Grey is the Grey, the Black is the Black. I will say I like how 4e incorporated "the lands between the wind" for the feywild and some of the primordial/god lore as possible backgrounds, but Dark Sun is explicitly not a setting that's intended to feature great bouts of planar travel.
Ironically, the only place the words Arcane and Divine are used to describe spellcasting and spellcaster classes is in a subsection called "The Weave of Magic"
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
You are using your thoughts to create energy which has the ability to interact with matter and lift it.
Heh.

Once one asks, "How do thoughts create energy?" "What is this energy?" "Where does this energy come from?" "How do thoughts inside ones skull create this energy at a distance?"

The answer goes back to, mind is everywhere.
 

Remathilis

Legend
The Weave exists everywhere in the 5e multiverse per RAW. It might not be called the weave, and might interact differently, but it exists in Dark Sun unless specific beats general when(and if) they put the book out.
I'm going technically disagree; it's a default assumption about the Multiverse of D&D, but it's not a rule, its lore/fluff. There are no inherent rules in the game directly tied to the concept of the Weave, it is merely the default assumption to explain how magic works. (Akin to the Great Wheel being the default assumption of how the Multiverse is arranged).

Less Rule As Written, more Default Lore Concept.
 


AdmundfortGeographer

Getting lost in fantasy maps
Dark Sun is not FR, the core books present the FR cosmology as a starter set of assumptions because it hews closest to "classic fantasy" assumptions. The Grey is the Grey, the Black is the Black. I will say I like how 4e incorporated "the lands between the wind" for the feywild and some of the primordial/god lore as possible backgrounds, but Dark Sun is explicitly not a setting that's intended to feature great bouts of planar travel.
The original core books build off the standard AD&D cosmology, not so much FRs. There is mention of the four elemental planes with the cleric, there is mention of the Positive and Negative planes in the section on Battling Undead in Dark Sun.

I asked Troy about where the inspiration for The Gray and The Black came from as they were not mentioned in the original books. He admitted that cosmology was never considered by the original design. They needed the setting isolated from the rest of the AD&D settings simply to prevent the powerful Dark Sun characters from getting into the other AD&D settings. So voila, planar isolation by game rule necessity.

The Gray and The Black came up later as Troy was writing the novels and he felt he needed to handle an afterlife in some way for the novels (The Gray) and a place where Rajaat was imprisoned that existed outside of the world (The Hollow, inside The Black).
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I'm going technically disagree; it's a default assumption about the Multiverse of D&D, but it's not a rule, its lore/fluff. There are no inherent rules in the game directly tied to the concept of the Weave, it is merely the default assumption to explain how magic works. (Akin to the Great Wheel being the default assumption of how the Multiverse is arranged).

Less Rule As Written, more Default Lore Concept.
Fair enough. That's where the talk of the weave with regard to Athas is coming from, though. :)
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
I'm going technically disagree; it's a default assumption about the Multiverse of D&D, but it's not a rule, its lore/fluff. There are no inherent rules in the game directly tied to the concept of the Weave, it is merely the default assumption to explain how magic works. (Akin to the Great Wheel being the default assumption of how the Multiverse is arranged).

Less Rule As Written, more Default Lore Concept.
I was going to type a long post, but @Remathilis said it better this time.

None of my worlds have a "W"eave, unless you want to try to convince me that my "Theory of Cosmic Ethereal Density" which as the density varies the strength of magic varies is actually the Weave in disguise.

Also, my psionics work even in magic dead zones (unless specifically creating a spell i.e. somehow trying to summon magic).
 

cbwjm

Legend
I'm also one of those who doesn't bother with the weave. It's a story telling component for the FR, not something necessary for other worlds, definitely nothing like it in my homebrews. There a caster is drawing directly on raw magic to shape into a desired spell effect.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
None of my worlds have a "W"eave, unless you want to try to convince me that my "Theory of Cosmic Ethereal Density" which as the density varies the strength of magic varies is actually the Weave in disguise.
That's exactly what the section about "The Weave" is saying. It's not saying that there is some sort of weave around every setting. It's saying that every setting has some sort of interface between the casters and the raw magic of the universe. For yours it's the Cosmic Ethereal Density. For FR it's The Weave. For Athas it could be DIT(Defilement Institute of Technology).
 
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SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
That's exactly what the section about "The Weave" is saying. It's not saying that there is some sort of weave around every setting. It's saying that every setting has some sort of interface between the casters and the raw magic of the universe. For yours it's the Cosmic Ethereal Density. For FR it's The Weave. For Athas it could be BIT(Defilement Institute of Technology).
Anecdotal: Well except for Chaos magic, those wacky folk try to manipulate chaos/possibility through sheer force of will.

chaos magic EA.jpg
 

Steampunkette

Shaper of Worlds
Supporter
It's not just special locations. Every freaking rock formation has one. That means every a desert with 7 "stretches"(no idea how much desert constitutes a stretch) and 3000 rock formations in it will have a minimum of 3007 spirits. I live in California which is mostly desert. There are MANY rock formations within just a few miles of my house. And those are just examples. A ravine in the desert would be sufficient to have its own spirit. A grouping of 12 hills in the desert will have 12 more spirits.
Ehhhh...

I think that takes it a bit too far. The first paragraph states "Unique geographical formations". Oases on Athas are pretty unique no matter how many of them there are because of how rare they are compared to everything else.

But "Every Rock Formation" would mean that you couldn't walk 100ft without passing a pile of rocks with it's own druid protecting it. Or, at least, having enough of a spirit that a druid -could- protect it.

And considering that Athasian Druids don't just protect their feature, but also the surrounding region with an ever-widening radius based on their level, I think the more appropriate interpretation is that the spirits are tied to the Unique ones, but those spirits look over the whole area and work with, or through depending on perspective, druids to tend them.

(I wrote this post hours ago but the site went down so here it is, belatedly)
 

Steampunkette

Shaper of Worlds
Supporter
Heh.

Once one asks, "How do thoughts create energy?" "What is this energy?" "Where does this energy come from?" "How do thoughts inside ones skull create this energy at a distance?"

The answer goes back to, mind is everywhere.
How do thoughts create energy? They create energy in the way Psionic Powers do.

What is this energy? Psionic Energy.

Where does this energy come from? From the Psionicist's convictions.

How do thoughts inside one's skull create this energy at a distance? Because it's a Supernatural Power that ignores the laws of Physics.

No. The mind is not everywhere.

Supernatural abilities shouldn't HAVE a defined source like you and modern WotC are trying to stuff in. Because then it's just Physics and it becomes natural and normal rather than Supernatural. If a natural force exists and the mind just interacts with that force then Psionics are no different than walking over and picking the object up with your hand to impart kinetic energy on it.

Magic isn't Magic if it's just well understood and easily defined Physics... it's just Physics.
 

cbwjm

Legend
I do wonder, if the designers create a psion class, if it will use similar mechanics to the warrior and rogue subclasses with the psi-dice. It sort of makes sense that they would so as to have a unifying mechanic but they'd also need something else to keep them competitive with other classes, otherwise they don't have enough dice to keep up. I'd hope to see the psi-dice as a component.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Ehhhh...

I think that takes it a bit too far. The first paragraph states "Unique geographical formations". Oases on Athas are pretty unique no matter how many of them there are because of how rare they are compared to everything else.

But "Every Rock Formation" would mean that you couldn't walk 100ft without passing a pile of rocks with it's own druid protecting it. Or, at least, having enough of a spirit that a druid -could- protect it.

And considering that Athasian Druids don't just protect their feature, but also the surrounding region with an ever-widening radius based on their level, I think the more appropriate interpretation is that the spirits are tied to the Unique ones, but those spirits look over the whole area and work with, or through depending on perspective, druids to tend them.
(I wrote this post hours ago but the site went down so here it is, belatedly)
It's quoted from the 2e Darksun book. Every rock formation. I think it's safe to assume that there are greater and lesser spirits, and the druids would serve the greater ones.
 

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