D&D 5E 5e Hobgoblin stat block

[Kobold Stew]

Having Sneak Attack, Phalanx and Rogue in the same bucket, and Phalanx not in the Fighter bucket, is something I will have to wrap my mind around

I think you are right to be confused, but perhaps not for the reason you think.

D&D has always had problems with phalanx fighting (can't speak for 2e, but certainly in other editions). It's just never been possible (a) to hold a spear and a shield and fight efficiently, and (b) to fight better when someone else beside you is doing the same. It shouldn't be a tough thing to design, but there you go.

The hobgoblin ability is not that (obviously), though it can replicate (b), and do other things besides.

Does the ability work if the allies don't attack? What if there were 4 goblins hidden in bushes next to the party and 2 Hobgoblins at range with bows?

This, I feel, is an unfair situation for understanding the discussion -- the creatures here should not be set against a level 1 party: depending on the goblin CR (either 1/4 or 1/2), this is a CR2 or 3 encounter -- a difficult challenge for a party of level 2 or3 characters. It might be a fun situation to run, just not against level 1 characters -- absolutely the goblins should mop the floor with level 1 PCs.

 

[Manbearcat]

It wouldn't surprise me terribly if this is just the bog standard, generic chassis for the hobgoblin and then they give you a collection of features that let you mod that base chassis to achieve a specific theme. 4e accomplishes it (primarily but not fully) by giving hobgoblins an assortment of stuff like the below.

Traits

Threatening Reach
The hobgoblin < > can make opportunity attacks against enemies within its weapon’s reach (2 squares).

Phalanx Soldier
While at least one hobgoblin ally is adjacent to the hobgoblin < >, it gains a +2 bonus to AC.



Move Actions

Phalanx Movement

At-Will
Effect: Close burst 1 (allies in the burst). The hobgoblin < >and each target can shift 1 square as a free action. The target must shift to a square adjacent to the hobgoblin < >.


Triggered Actions

Tactical Withdrawal

At-Will
Trigger: An enemy enters a square adjacent to the hobgoblin < >.
Effect (Immediate Reaction): The hobgoblin shifts up to 3 squares.

Share Shield

At-Will
Trigger: An adjacent ally is hit by an attack against AC or Reflex.
Effect (Immediate Interrupt): The ally gains a +2 bonus to AC and Reflex against the triggering attack.

Hobgoblin Resilience

Encounter

Trigger: The hobgoblin captain or an ally within 5 squares of it is subjected to an effect that a save can end.
Effect (Immediate Reaction): The creature subjected to the effect can make a saving throw against it.

From those you can get pikemen, halberdiers, spear-skirmishers, phalanx battle guards, and battle captains. Those pretty much all translate to 5e except the Move Actions. They would need some work due to the very different nature of the Move Action in the editions, but it could easily be done.

 

[Sir Brennen]

It wouldn't surprise me terribly if this is just the bog standard, generic chassis for the hobgoblin and then they give you a collection of features that let you mod that base chassis to achieve a specific theme. 4e accomplishes it (primarily but not fully) by giving hobgoblins an assortment of stuff like the below.

From those you can get pikemen, halberdiers, spear-skirmishers, phalanx battle guards, and battle captains. Those pretty much all translate to 5e except the Move Actions. They would need some work due to the very different nature of the Move Action in the editions, but it could easily be done.

Yeah, I wonder if this Starter Set entry is simplified somewhat from the actual Monster Manual entry. Obviously we're going to get more fluff, but there might be a couple of other hobgoblin abilities or versions that support the Tactical Warriors concept more, and perhaps the details of this particular ability will be clarified somewhat as well.

Also, since these are monsters likely to be in an encounter or two within the Starter Set adventure, perhaps in those encounters the hobs only allies are other hobs, so the consideration of other types of allies is a moot point, and the text of the monster entry was simplified for space.

Also, I'd like to vote to change the title of this thread to Murder Hobos vs. Murder HobGobs.

 

[Jester David]

It wouldn't surprise me terribly if this is just the bog standard, generic chassis for the hobgoblin and then they give you a collection of features that let you mod that base chassis to achieve a specific theme. 4e accomplishes it (primarily but not fully) by giving hobgoblins an assortment of stuff like the below.



From those you can get pikemen, halberdiers, spear-skirmishers, phalanx battle guards, and battle captains. Those pretty much all translate to 5e except the Move Actions. They would need some work due to the very different nature of the Move Action in the editions, but it could easily be done.

I don't think we need a dozen different types of creatures any more, even for humanoids. A couple choice variants that are very iconic, like an Eye of Gruumsh, are enough.
If you need to customize your half-orcs you can give them different equipment. Or a level or fighter. Or a template/monster theme.
Each hobgoblin in a battle doesn't need to be a unique snowflake.

That said, some super simple humanoid templates would be nice. Something you could apply to any orc or goblinoid or gnoll. Or elf or human monster for that matter.

 

[ClauDeDoin]

This, I feel, is an unfair situation for understanding the discussion -- the creatures here should not be set against a level 1 party: depending on the goblin CR (either 1/4 or 1/2), this is a CR2 or 3 encounter -- a difficult challenge for a party of level 2 or3 characters. It might be a fun situation to run, just not against level 1 characters -- absolutely the goblins should mop the floor with level 1 PCs.

Based on Mike Mearls's latest comments about CRs (Table Topping interview, 23:30 min. and onward), XP budgets determine the number of creatures in a given encounter. Adding up CRs is not a substitute for that budget calculation because CRs tell you only whether monsters are "moderate to challenging" for a given party of a given level. In other words, the DM would build an encounter for a 1st-level party by picking monsters of CR 1 (or below) and combine them until she met the XP budget for that encounter.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Based on Mike Mearls's latest comments about CRs (Table Topping interview, 23:30 min. and onward), XP budgets determine the number of creatures in a given encounter. Adding up CRs is not a substitute for that budget calculation because CRs tell you only whether monsters are "moderate to challenging" for a given party of a given level. In other words, the DM would build an encounter for a 1st-level party by picking monsters of CR 1 (or below) and combine them until she met the XP budget for that encounter.

Fair enough.

I don't know what the recommended XP budget is for a first level encounter. Do you?

 

[ClauDeDoin]

Fair enough.

I don't know what the recommended XP budget is for a first level encounter. Do you?

According to the last playtest packet (14 Oct 2013), an average encounter for four 1st-level characters should be 80 XP, but given the changes in monsters' XP values - Hobgoblins are listed as 20 XP in the same packet - I suspect that budget numbers will have increased substantially.

 

[Kobold Stew]

According to the last playtest packet (14 Oct 2013), an average encounter for four 1st-level characters should be 80 XP, but given the changes in monsters' XP values - Hobgoblins are listed as 20 XP in the same packet - I suspect that budget numbers will have increased substantially.

That's my point -- we just don't know.

 

[ClauDeDoin]

That's my point -- we just don't know.

I absolutely agree. My only concern was to clarify what CRs can (and can't) be used for.

 

[Nikosandros]

Based on Mike Mearls's latest comments about CRs (Table Topping interview, 23:30 min. and onward), XP budgets determine the number of creatures in a given encounter. Adding up CRs is not a substitute for that budget calculation because CRs tell you only whether monsters are "moderate to challenging" for a given party of a given level. In other words, the DM would build an encounter for a 1st-level party by picking monsters of CR 1 (or below) and combine them until she met the XP budget for that encounter.

That's my understanding as well, but in this context, I find the idea of fractional CR (i.e. 1/2) somewhat baffling.