Curmudjinn
Explorer
How'd it go?
5e Initiative Tweak - Reactive Initiative
- Thread starter Ilbranteloth
- Start date
How'd it go?
Ilbranteloth
Explorer
Only one combat, as it turned out, but it went well. There wasn't really any situation where it was important that one opponent got the jump on the other. No issues with spell durations though, which was good.
What was quite different is that the story just flowed into the combat. Half the party was working on crossing a small lake, and the ranger had already crossed so was investigating what was left of their horses in the underbrush in the swamp. Unfortunately he failed (both himself and his check) to remember that there wasn't much in the way of large vegetation where they had left the horses.
So having not noticed the shambling mound, it got the first attack at him (and missed). He retaliated, and yelled to let the others know. The shambler attacked again and he backed off, and released a weasel from his newly found bag of tricks (he was hoping for something larger...).
By this time the others were onshore and running over to help. As I said before, I generally have them rolling their attacks at the same time. In the end, one of the bards was engulfed by the shambler, two rounds before the party killed it.
I think that since it was only one creature, there wasn't much need for tracking initiative anyway. As it was, everybody rolling at the same time (including the shambling mound) sped things up even more (5e combat is fast as it is). But I think it really worked well to keep them immersed in the scenario.
In the meantime I read The Angry DM's post about speed factor:
http://angrydm.com/2015/02/fine-i-wrote-about-speed-factor-initiative-in-dd-5e/
I'm not opposed to speed factor, and I think that if we do move to static numbers it's easy enough to implement. What stood out to me though is part two of his example combat. It's not specifically about initiative, but the count to the next turn is the sort of thing that I'm hoping to eliminate to make it feel less 'gamey.'
Anyway, so far, so good. I generally have no idea what the PCs are going to do each session, but I suspect that the next one will involve very little, if any, combat since they just got back to Daggerford and will probably spend a good portion of the session looking for information and visiting a few NPCs to try to fit together the many clues they've picked up recently.
Ilbranteloth
What was quite different is that the story just flowed into the combat. Half the party was working on crossing a small lake, and the ranger had already crossed so was investigating what was left of their horses in the underbrush in the swamp. Unfortunately he failed (both himself and his check) to remember that there wasn't much in the way of large vegetation where they had left the horses.
So having not noticed the shambling mound, it got the first attack at him (and missed). He retaliated, and yelled to let the others know. The shambler attacked again and he backed off, and released a weasel from his newly found bag of tricks (he was hoping for something larger...).
By this time the others were onshore and running over to help. As I said before, I generally have them rolling their attacks at the same time. In the end, one of the bards was engulfed by the shambler, two rounds before the party killed it.
I think that since it was only one creature, there wasn't much need for tracking initiative anyway. As it was, everybody rolling at the same time (including the shambling mound) sped things up even more (5e combat is fast as it is). But I think it really worked well to keep them immersed in the scenario.
In the meantime I read The Angry DM's post about speed factor:
http://angrydm.com/2015/02/fine-i-wrote-about-speed-factor-initiative-in-dd-5e/
I'm not opposed to speed factor, and I think that if we do move to static numbers it's easy enough to implement. What stood out to me though is part two of his example combat. It's not specifically about initiative, but the count to the next turn is the sort of thing that I'm hoping to eliminate to make it feel less 'gamey.'
Anyway, so far, so good. I generally have no idea what the PCs are going to do each session, but I suspect that the next one will involve very little, if any, combat since they just got back to Daggerford and will probably spend a good portion of the session looking for information and visiting a few NPCs to try to fit together the many clues they've picked up recently.
Ilbranteloth
Ilbranteloth
Explorer
So, the last session had more combat, and the initiative concept is working really well. There was one point in time where the rogue (assassin) was hiding and waiting for an opportunity to use his sneak attack/assassinate ability (while the others were attacking with ranged weapons and moving back to draw the enemy to him.
When it reached that point the rogue and his target rolled a quick initiative to see if his strike (which had a good chance of taking it out) occurred first, which it did.
So I'd say that at this point, I'm using round-based actions (as everybody still gets to act in the 6 second round), but the events are roughly simultaneous. Initiative rolls are used on an as-needed basis to resolve specific situations when it's important to know whose action is completed first.
That last sentence is an important distinction, I think. Normal initiative is concerned with who gets to start their action first.
There was one point where a couple of players were half paying attention while they 'waited for their turn.' But that's not really a new issue, and it's likely to become less and less of an issue since things move more quickly when everybody is essentially acting simultaneously. Not as much waiting.
Ilbranteloth
When it reached that point the rogue and his target rolled a quick initiative to see if his strike (which had a good chance of taking it out) occurred first, which it did.
So I'd say that at this point, I'm using round-based actions (as everybody still gets to act in the 6 second round), but the events are roughly simultaneous. Initiative rolls are used on an as-needed basis to resolve specific situations when it's important to know whose action is completed first.
That last sentence is an important distinction, I think. Normal initiative is concerned with who gets to start their action first.
There was one point where a couple of players were half paying attention while they 'waited for their turn.' But that's not really a new issue, and it's likely to become less and less of an issue since things move more quickly when everybody is essentially acting simultaneously. Not as much waiting.
Ilbranteloth
Ilbranteloth
Explorer
Well we had a couple of really fun (hysterical, really) combats this week, and the initiative (or lack of it) has been working very well the last couple of weeks.
The first encounter was following some tiny tracks in the snow away from their horses that had been looted in the night. The tracks ended, but they eventually found a bag hanging up in the trees. While trying to get that down, one of them was stabbed in the backside by a previously invisible sprite.
After being on the wrong end of a few snowballs (including a critical hit!), and other pranks, two of them were fed up. The bard backed away from the party and hoped to catch the invisible pranksters in a Thunderwave. She got one, which instantly dropped into the snow. Dead. The ranger and assassin quickly (and successfully) attempted to stabilize and heal it.
In the meantime, the rogue decided to go on the offensive. While he's about to make his attack, the ranger and assassin are yelling at him to stop, and both attempted to tackle him, but failed miserably (I think they rolled a 2 and a 3). In the meantime, the first attack roll was a 20, but since the sprite was invisible and (thankfully) the attack was with disadvantage. He still hit, but somehow rolled a 1 for damage, and the other two were once again able to save the poor creature.
In the meantime, the bard decided to listen to the other two and end the fight by casting sleep. Now the current rules don't indicate that sprites are immune to sleep, but being fey creatures, and the rest of the party being elves except the bard and the rogue she ended up putting the rogue to sleep. The sprites peppered him with a few arrows and flew away.
Just prior to the combat itself, the other bard (a sylvan elf) had disappeared into the snow using his natural hiding ability (rolled a 20 actually), this was after the sprites had dropped his trousers.
But the transition from encounter to combat and back was seamless, and the only time that an initiative roll might have been needed was when the ranger and assassin were attempting to tackle the rogue. It became irrelevant when they rolled so low so no initiative (reaction) roll was made.
--
An interlude occurred when they noticed a displacer beast stalking them from the hills. It was still far enough away that they could have attacked with ranged spells, but instead they opted to try to avoid combat. The ranger is particularly fond of his bag of tricks, and pulled a giant badger out of it this time. So he sent the badger off to investigate the displacer beast (it didn't last long, but delayed it a bit), and in the meantime they took off at a fair pace. Riding horses with a speed of 60' and the beast only 40' and a snack. Even with the snow slowing all of them down it was a good choice.
--
The second major encounter was at night. They had decided to continue travelling (on horseback) since it's nearly a full moon and the reflection on the snow on the largely open terrain provided plenty of light. Or so they thought. They are travelling along the edge of the Forlorn Hills, and did not see the wyvern crouching on the hillside until it was nearly too late.
On the first diving pass the wyvern missed (3 and a 4), and in the process of turning around took a few good hits from the ranger. In the meantime the assassin was herding the merchants they were protecting off of the road, the rogue (arcane trickster) hit it with a flame bolt, the human bard dropped off her horse into the snow to play dead, and the sylvan bard started to play his pipes of haunting.
When the wyvern came back around it grabbed the human bard's horse (randomly). In the meantime it made its save against the pipes, the ranger was firing more arrows at it, the human bard was watching her horse be snatched above her, the assassin was still herding merchants, and...
So I was ready with my description of the beast flying up out of reach in the hills to munch on the horse, also giving them the opportunity to get away. Hey, it's a tough creature and it was late.
The rogue decided to use his rope of entanglement.
What?!?
OK, does it work against a large creature? No restriction listed in the description. Looked at the d20 wyvern - 15' long, 20' wingspan, and a 30' rope. OK I think, maybe he'll get a leg and I'll get to yank him out of the saddle.
Nope. The wyvern attempted his Dexterity save to avoid it. A freaking natural 1. So, with no rules specifically against it, and that roll, yep he entangled the diving wyvern, just as it was grabbing the horse.
So the thing crash lands, restrained, and the group falls on it with advantage to attack (yes, with two rogues, one of them being an assassin), and that's the end of the wyvern (and the horse, unfortunately).
Again, everybody just told me what they were doing, and everything was either simultaneous or logically ordered. There wasn't really any point where initiative would have mattered. The only point where I think it might have made a difference would be if he entangled the wyvern before it grabbed the horse, but that was pretty much the place where the wyvern was in range anyway. Even if it had been entangled first, it would have just barreled through the poor horse anyway.
And like the encounter with the sprites, it was just part of the continuous story, no hard transition between exploration and combat.
Ilbranteloth
The first encounter was following some tiny tracks in the snow away from their horses that had been looted in the night. The tracks ended, but they eventually found a bag hanging up in the trees. While trying to get that down, one of them was stabbed in the backside by a previously invisible sprite.
After being on the wrong end of a few snowballs (including a critical hit!), and other pranks, two of them were fed up. The bard backed away from the party and hoped to catch the invisible pranksters in a Thunderwave. She got one, which instantly dropped into the snow. Dead. The ranger and assassin quickly (and successfully) attempted to stabilize and heal it.
In the meantime, the rogue decided to go on the offensive. While he's about to make his attack, the ranger and assassin are yelling at him to stop, and both attempted to tackle him, but failed miserably (I think they rolled a 2 and a 3). In the meantime, the first attack roll was a 20, but since the sprite was invisible and (thankfully) the attack was with disadvantage. He still hit, but somehow rolled a 1 for damage, and the other two were once again able to save the poor creature.
In the meantime, the bard decided to listen to the other two and end the fight by casting sleep. Now the current rules don't indicate that sprites are immune to sleep, but being fey creatures, and the rest of the party being elves except the bard and the rogue she ended up putting the rogue to sleep. The sprites peppered him with a few arrows and flew away.
Just prior to the combat itself, the other bard (a sylvan elf) had disappeared into the snow using his natural hiding ability (rolled a 20 actually), this was after the sprites had dropped his trousers.
But the transition from encounter to combat and back was seamless, and the only time that an initiative roll might have been needed was when the ranger and assassin were attempting to tackle the rogue. It became irrelevant when they rolled so low so no initiative (reaction) roll was made.
--
An interlude occurred when they noticed a displacer beast stalking them from the hills. It was still far enough away that they could have attacked with ranged spells, but instead they opted to try to avoid combat. The ranger is particularly fond of his bag of tricks, and pulled a giant badger out of it this time. So he sent the badger off to investigate the displacer beast (it didn't last long, but delayed it a bit), and in the meantime they took off at a fair pace. Riding horses with a speed of 60' and the beast only 40' and a snack. Even with the snow slowing all of them down it was a good choice.
--
The second major encounter was at night. They had decided to continue travelling (on horseback) since it's nearly a full moon and the reflection on the snow on the largely open terrain provided plenty of light. Or so they thought. They are travelling along the edge of the Forlorn Hills, and did not see the wyvern crouching on the hillside until it was nearly too late.
On the first diving pass the wyvern missed (3 and a 4), and in the process of turning around took a few good hits from the ranger. In the meantime the assassin was herding the merchants they were protecting off of the road, the rogue (arcane trickster) hit it with a flame bolt, the human bard dropped off her horse into the snow to play dead, and the sylvan bard started to play his pipes of haunting.
When the wyvern came back around it grabbed the human bard's horse (randomly). In the meantime it made its save against the pipes, the ranger was firing more arrows at it, the human bard was watching her horse be snatched above her, the assassin was still herding merchants, and...
So I was ready with my description of the beast flying up out of reach in the hills to munch on the horse, also giving them the opportunity to get away. Hey, it's a tough creature and it was late.
The rogue decided to use his rope of entanglement.
What?!?
OK, does it work against a large creature? No restriction listed in the description. Looked at the d20 wyvern - 15' long, 20' wingspan, and a 30' rope. OK I think, maybe he'll get a leg and I'll get to yank him out of the saddle.
Nope. The wyvern attempted his Dexterity save to avoid it. A freaking natural 1. So, with no rules specifically against it, and that roll, yep he entangled the diving wyvern, just as it was grabbing the horse.
So the thing crash lands, restrained, and the group falls on it with advantage to attack (yes, with two rogues, one of them being an assassin), and that's the end of the wyvern (and the horse, unfortunately).
Again, everybody just told me what they were doing, and everything was either simultaneous or logically ordered. There wasn't really any point where initiative would have mattered. The only point where I think it might have made a difference would be if he entangled the wyvern before it grabbed the horse, but that was pretty much the place where the wyvern was in range anyway. Even if it had been entangled first, it would have just barreled through the poor horse anyway.
And like the encounter with the sprites, it was just part of the continuous story, no hard transition between exploration and combat.
Ilbranteloth
Ilbranteloth
Explorer
Reporting back.
We've been playing without initiative for about 10 months now, and I've started another campaign with other players and I'm using it there too. It works very, very well.
Basically, any given encounter with a creature just occurs sort of naturally. Until somebody actually makes an attack of some sort, there isn't a combat, just the encounter. There can be parleying, hostility, etc. It just seems to encourage interaction in a way that starting with 'roll initiative' doesn't. So the flow of the game is fantastic with it.
Everybody who is making an attack rolls their attacks at the same time, and they tell me what they are doing. It's usually multiple people talking at once, but if I have to clarify, I can. I then describe the action as it's happening, and make opposed initiative checks when needed. Combined with the fact that I've beefed up unarmed combat, and added special maneuvers, like trying to blind somebody, go for a groin shot, etc., it's quick, chaotic, and very exciting. It also fosters different tactical approaches.
In the new campaign (with an ex-marine) two of them were facing a displacer beast that was slowly inching toward them like a great cat on the hunt. To get the jump, the monk ran out across its field of vision to distract it and allow the fighter to move back diagonally to start firing arrows, at which point the monk closed to attack. The plan worked, but of course, the displacer beast attacked the monk, doing some damage, but taking damage from the arrows and the monk. By the second round it had lost more hit points than it dealt, so it turned to escape. I rolled the direction randomly, which happened to be around the corner of a building where their ally was running up with javelin ready having heard the combat. The beast leaped around the corner, practically knocking her over, but she got a shot in with the javelin (opportunity attack) and missed. As it turned to run into the woods the she threw another javelin and struck it well, but didn't kill it.
None of the attacks needed an initiative check, and the entire combat took 4 rounds.
Our other campaign has also been working well with it, and quite frankly, nobody has missed it. Most importantly, combats now consist of everybody in motion, trying to get an advantage, and quick exchanges of attacks. I might take a couple of boxes of minis to the next session at the store to see how those fit into things. If I use terrain of any sort it will not include squares. I've been describing distances in more relative terms, like within closing distance for a melee attack, instead of strict distances.
Ilbranteloth
We've been playing without initiative for about 10 months now, and I've started another campaign with other players and I'm using it there too. It works very, very well.
Basically, any given encounter with a creature just occurs sort of naturally. Until somebody actually makes an attack of some sort, there isn't a combat, just the encounter. There can be parleying, hostility, etc. It just seems to encourage interaction in a way that starting with 'roll initiative' doesn't. So the flow of the game is fantastic with it.
Everybody who is making an attack rolls their attacks at the same time, and they tell me what they are doing. It's usually multiple people talking at once, but if I have to clarify, I can. I then describe the action as it's happening, and make opposed initiative checks when needed. Combined with the fact that I've beefed up unarmed combat, and added special maneuvers, like trying to blind somebody, go for a groin shot, etc., it's quick, chaotic, and very exciting. It also fosters different tactical approaches.
In the new campaign (with an ex-marine) two of them were facing a displacer beast that was slowly inching toward them like a great cat on the hunt. To get the jump, the monk ran out across its field of vision to distract it and allow the fighter to move back diagonally to start firing arrows, at which point the monk closed to attack. The plan worked, but of course, the displacer beast attacked the monk, doing some damage, but taking damage from the arrows and the monk. By the second round it had lost more hit points than it dealt, so it turned to escape. I rolled the direction randomly, which happened to be around the corner of a building where their ally was running up with javelin ready having heard the combat. The beast leaped around the corner, practically knocking her over, but she got a shot in with the javelin (opportunity attack) and missed. As it turned to run into the woods the she threw another javelin and struck it well, but didn't kill it.
None of the attacks needed an initiative check, and the entire combat took 4 rounds.
Our other campaign has also been working well with it, and quite frankly, nobody has missed it. Most importantly, combats now consist of everybody in motion, trying to get an advantage, and quick exchanges of attacks. I might take a couple of boxes of minis to the next session at the store to see how those fit into things. If I use terrain of any sort it will not include squares. I've been describing distances in more relative terms, like within closing distance for a melee attack, instead of strict distances.
Ilbranteloth
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