5e invisibility and Detect Magic

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Can we stop with this rules lawyer BS already? "You enter a room. Your eyes are immediately and automatically drawn to the invisible iron golem standing motionless in a corner, no check needed". I don't care what the printed rule is, it's aggressively stupid.

Some of us enjoy the rules lawyer BS. I would assume that the invisible golem standing motionless in the corner is hiding. See? I got there per the rules without being aggressively stupid. Maybe stupid, but not aggressively so.
 

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Oofta

Legend
I am not sure it is correct to interpret this as meaning that the target must be wearing carrying the invisible item at the time the spell is cast. I could see going both ways.

1. Only items carried at time spell cast are invisible and if they are removed from the invisible target's person, the items are no longer invisible.

This fits with the common movie and TV tropes. You go invisible but then when you carry something it hovers in the air. You can smudge paint on your face. But in those depictions, this is usually because only the targets physical body, not clothes or held items are invisible. The invisible man had to go nude to be invisible. The plus side it is makes it easier to detect the invisible creature by throwing flour in the air, rain, etc. But it also means that the invislbe thief can't, say, hide a stolen gem. You would just have a floating gem moving about.

2. Anything on the target's person is/becomes invisible for the duration.

This allows a player to take something--like a letter, gem, etc.--and make it invisible. It also does not completely nerf the flour in the air trick, because even though the flour turns invisible when it hits the invisible creature's body, their will be a more obvious distortion.

Reading over this list and thinking about it, I've come to realize that I prefer option two. I like to think of invisibility is similar to Predator or Skyrim. You can, if paying attention, notice a distortion. It makes it hard to hid and very hard to see if the invisible creature is hiding. While you are invisible, whatever you carry is invisible.

Both interpretations raise some interesting questions. I'll assume the first interpretation, only that which is on your person when invisibility is cast on you is also made invisible.

1. You are holding a torch when invisibility is cast on you. Is the torch now invisible? Does it still cast light? Or is the light "leaving" your person? Same with the heat. Also the smoke would be visible because it is leaving your person. I would rule that you could see the flame and smoke, but not the torch itself.

2. You are holding an injured comrade. Can a "person" be on your person? If you give someone a piggyback ride, can you have two party members made invisible for the price of one? Per the RAW, a person is something you can carry. I would say yes. Think of the fun you could have with a party made up of a Goliath and four gnomes.

3. Are you invisible to yourself? I would say, either "no" or that you see a translucent glowing version of yourself.

I'd allow a person to conceal a small object in a pouch or in their cloak. But just pick something up? It's floating in the air is how I rule it.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Some of us enjoy the rules lawyer BS. I would assume that the invisible golem standing motionless in the corner is hiding. See? I got there per the rules without being aggressively stupid. Maybe stupid, but not aggressively so.

Since the golem's Stealth skill is a whopping -1, it is very likely to be detected (and its location pinpointed) whether it's hiding or not. You walk into the room and just know that there's an invisible golem in the corner.

"Invisible creature standing still" is one of the failure points of the stealth rules.
 

Some of us enjoy the rules lawyer BS. I would assume that the invisible golem standing motionless in the corner is hiding. See? I got there per the rules without being aggressively stupid. Maybe stupid, but not aggressively so.

Since the golem's Stealth skill is a whopping -1, it is very likely to be detected (and its location pinpointed) whether it's hiding or not. You walk into the room and just know that there's an invisible golem in the corner.

"Invisible creature standing still" is one of the failure points of the stealth rules.

Hiding ("stealth rules") excerpt:
"When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.

You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet."



In the invisible golem example, the golem is not actively trying to hide when the PCs enter the room, it already IS hiding probably as a result of being commanded by its master to stay perfectly still and quiet until those pesky kids come through the room trying to tamper with its master's stuff. As indicted above in the RAW, unless the PCs are actively searching for an invisible golem in that particular room - which is highly unlikely unless they were tipped off prior to entering the room - they are not going to automatically detect it. Or did I miss a more specific stealth rule here?
 

Dausuul

Legend
As indicted above in the RAW, unless the PCs are actively searching for an invisible golem in that particular room - which is highly unlikely unless they were tipped off prior to entering the room - they are not going to automatically detect it. Or did I miss a more specific stealth rule here?

Yes, Passive Perception:

Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14.
 

Oofta

Legend
Yes, Passive Perception:

Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14.

Which is why we have DMs to make rulings that work for them and their group. Then of course there's the description of invisibility which states "The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.".

If there is no noise (or the noise is inconsequential) and there are no tracks (or the tracks are not going to be noticed) then it's not detected. But that's incomplete because there's no way they could describe every condition an invisible creature could be detected. If there's flour flying through the air spiderwebs in the outline of a golem in the corner ... any number of things could give it away. That doesn't mean they will.

Just because the hide action is one way of avoiding detection, that doesn't mean it's the only way. Another way would be to be in your house with the camera on your device turned off. I know you're somewhere, but not exactly where. Or do I? :hmm:
 

guachi

Hero
Re: The Invisible Man movie. The best part is that the movie takes place during a winter storm. And he can only be Invisible when he's nude.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
Can we stop with this rules lawyer BS already? "You enter a room. Your eyes are immediately and automatically drawn to the invisible iron golem standing motionless in a corner, no check needed". I don't care what the printed rule is, it's aggressively stupid.

That is a stupid example, I will ignore the implied insult because clearly you do not know the rules and how they interact.

The Golem has the invisibility condition - therefore

"Invisible • An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves. • Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature’s attack rolls have advantage."

So it is completely undetectable until it makes noise as stated in the rules. I would add if you run into an invisible object you would detect it. Furthermore it is heavily obscured "A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely" so you cant even try to see it.

Once the golem makes a noise or attacks, which both cause noise even though it not stated in the rules that those action cause it to be detectable, therefore you move to unseen attackers and targets:


U n s e e n A t t a c k e r s a n d T a r g e t s

1. Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack’s range: a creature, an object, or a location. 2. Determine modifiers. The DM determines whether the target has cover and whether you have advantage or disadvantage against the target. In addition, spells, special abilities, and other effects can apply penalties or bonuses to your attack roll. 3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Som e attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.

If there’s ever any question whether something you’re doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you’re making an attack roll, you’re making an attack.

Combatants often try to escape their foes’ notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness. When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target’s location correctly. When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."



I bolded relevant parts.

The golem retains the invisibility condition unless something happens to get rid of it, like ending the spell. The first sentence in the 3rd paragraph states clearly that HIDING is separate then being invisible as invisible is separated out. That means you can do both. I also bolded creatures you can hear but not see, clearly they are clearly different also. Finally the last bolded sentence tells you what HIDDEN means, unseen and unheard.

Read HIDING on page 177 PHB. The relevant passage there is the last one "What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured, as explained in chapter 8."

Since invisibility means you are heavily obscured, you cant see into it, so you cant detect it. There is also this passage "You can’t hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet. "

What that means is if you stay quiet and are invisible you are in a heavily obscured space so you cant be detected by normal means, so you example fails utterly just by reading the rules. Being invisible means you can always take the hide action, which means if you move, then you can still try to take the hide action (see hiding rules) to stay quiet so you do not give away your position. If you try to attack you give away your position, so you give away your position, but you still have the invisible condition UNLESS something else causes your invisibility to drop.


Its not being a rules lawyer, and I would know as I am an actual lawyer. Its called reading comprehension, I will give you more of a pass then you gave me since the rules are poorly organized so in some cases confusing. The rule in this case isn't absurd if you read and understand them.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
Since the golem's Stealth skill is a whopping -1, it is very likely to be detected (and its location pinpointed) whether it's hiding or not. You walk into the room and just know that there's an invisible golem in the corner.

"Invisible creature standing still" is one of the failure points of the stealth rules.

See my example already posted. No it isn't, its in a space heavily obscured, and makes no sound, so your passive perception wont help you. It isn't trying to hide, it has the invisible condition so can't be seen :

"In v i s i b l e • An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves. • Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature’s attack rolls have advantage"

In the case of a Golem, which doesn't breathe or make sounds, I would use the Hidden Object rules until it does something:


"Fi n d i n g a H id d e n O bject When your character searches for a hidden object such as a secret door or a trap, the DM typically asks you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check. Such a check can be used to find hidden details or other information and clues that you might otherwise overlook. In most cases, you need to describe where you are looking in order for the DM to determine your chance of success. For example, a key is hidden beneath a set of folded clothes in the top drawer of a bureau. If you tell the DM that you pace around the room, looking at the walls and furniture for clues, you have no chance of finding the key, regardless of your Wisdom (Perception) check result. You would have to specify that you were opening the drawers or searching the bureau in order to have any chance of success."

If you do not attack or emit sound then you do not need to make a hide check as you have the invisible condition and thus are impossible to see without aid of magic or special sense.
 

Some of us enjoy the rules lawyer BS. I would assume that the invisible golem standing motionless in the corner is hiding. See? I got there per the rules without being aggressively stupid. Maybe stupid, but not aggressively so.

Since you want to go down this rabbit hole, I'm saying it never takes the hide action. Why is it automatically detected again? You have to roll for non-invisible traps like tripwires. Clearly an invisible trap would be infinitely times worse due to being automatically detected!

This rule is bad, and those who wrote it should feel bad.
 
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