5e invisibility and Detect Magic

[cmad1977]

I’m so glad I don’t play with people who would entertain the ‘invisible golem problem’.

 

[Oofta]

Old castles and dungeons can be very drafty, causing the golem to sway ever so slightly, not to mention the eerie whistling sound made by the breeze passing through its body.

An iron golem probably weighs a couple of tons. That's one heck of a breeze.

If all iron golems are made with attached wind chimes in your world, that's fine. I just think it's a judgement call on the DM's part and there is no right or wrong. Tell you what, next time we'll make it an invisible gargoyle since, while I don't think it matters one iota, they have false appearance to look like statues.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm not saying it has muscles, but how do you think it resists the pull of gravity? What force is holding its jointed body in a fixed position?

Well, what says it has joints? They are wrought and smelted, so it could be a single piece of metal that bends magically. Or, it could be like my son's walking and roaring dinosaur and dragon, that just sit there silently without a single creak or groan until he pushes that horrid button and makes the rest of the house cringe.

 

[Oofta]

Well, what says it has joints? They are wrought and smelted, so it could be a single piece of metal that bends magically. Or, it could be like my son's walking and roaring dinosaur and dragon, that just sit there silently without a single creak or groan until he pushes that horrid button and makes the rest of the house cringe.

Revenge is a dish best served as a really noisy Christmas present to a nephew.

 

[Maxperson]

Old castles and dungeons can be very drafty, causing the golem to sway ever so slightly, not to mention the eerie whistling sound made by the breeze passing through its body.

It would take a hurricane to cause an iron golem to sway, and those whistling sounds could just as easily be cracks in the walls and timber. In fact, if there's a strong enough wind to cause whistling sounds, they are almost certainly going to be coming from all over and not just the one spot where the golem is at for just that reason.

 

[Maxperson]

Revenge is a dish best served as a really noisy Christmas present to a nephew.

Tell me about. After I became a parent, I finally figured out which "friends" are secretly upset with me and want revenge.

 

[Maxperson]

I’m so glad I don’t play with people who would entertain the ‘invisible golem problem’.

It's a new problem! Up until at least 3e they were immune to invisibility, so this never came up.

 

[smbakeresq]

Not sure how you say I glossed over the description while simultaneously admitting that description doesn't say golems are silent. :/

For noises: thrumming, humming, clicking, grinding, squealing, knocking, scraping, whistling, sussuruss, pinging, groaning, eerie piping, etc. Since there's no fixed construction or description details about iron golems or hiw magic animates them, essentially whatever you choose.


Sigh. If I have the iron golem roll a DEX(stealth) check, what's it's modifier, according to the rules?

Your assumption is that it is silent. You've decided this before checking. You should narrate accordingly.

If you fail a check to be hidden, you've either been seen to made noise or been located some other way. That's the rule. I don't have to determine ahead of time which occurred on a failed hiding attempt. It could be many things. My point is that if you fail to hide, somehow you are located. If you pre-narrate complete silence, that choice is what's causing you problems on a failed check, not the check. If, instead, you don't pre-narrate part of the gilem's attempt to hide, you have open options to say it made enough noise doing something and tgat's what caused the failed check.


I have fully quoted you every time. I'm not setting up a strawman, I'm saying that your issue is pre-narrating the outcome, which you are when you assume the golem is completely silent and motionless before you determine if it's hidden.


Lol. My entire argument is "don't paint yourself into corners, leave outs so the game can progress without predefined outcomes" and you accuse me of being rigid! Man, made my day!

To enunciate: if you are uncertain if the invisibke golem is hidden, roll the check and then decide the fiction. If you insist on deciding fiction that contradicts the roll, don't roll to begin with, just narrate. In the former, you're not assuming silent golems, but this golem may be silent if ot rolls well. In the latter, you've assumed silent golems already and then complain if a failed check doesn't match your established fiction. I say use the former method, and play to find out if the golem is silent; don't assume it is.

So you are ASSUMING that it makes all those noises without he rules saying so. Didn’t you just argue not to assume things? That if it isn’t stated in the rules it simply doesn’t exist?


As far as the hide check, this is what the only logical conclusion is following you, the golem will always be discovered. It is taking hide checks over and over as it awaits its trigger, so it would use a passive stealth check, with a result of 9. There is no groups that would have all passive PC checks under 9, so someone will always hear the noise your assumptions says it does.

If you decide to take an active stealth check it rolls a die, but only after the PC enter the room, as you would have to roll initiative before you start taking actions. So it would have to beat the PC initiative with a -1 to the check and then beat the PC perception checks to remain invisible.


Read the flavor text for iron golem, it discusses Mordenkainen encounter with a visible golem in “Mordenkainens Fantastic Adventure”, an old module. Not a single PC of that legendary group passed their perception checks to detect a visible iron golem in full view of the group. All of them where surprised when it animated and attacked, go read the adventure.

 

[smbakeresq]

I'm not saying it has muscles, but how do you think it resists the pull of gravity? What force is holding its jointed body in a fixed position?

The earth spirit inside of it, as stated in the description of golems.

 

[smbakeresq]

Old castles and dungeons can be very drafty, causing the golem to sway ever so slightly, not to mention the eerie whistling sound made by the breeze passing through its body.

That’s an assumption, not allowed by some as it isn’t into the rules. However assuming it’s true, how would you distinguish the sounds made by the wind through the golem as opposed to the wind passing through everything else in the room? Even if it was visible, to me the wind passing through the golem does scream “It’s a golem not an iron statue!!!” It would just be an iron statue with wind passing through it.


Passive perception is not an always on radar and sonar field that constantly provides a tactical read out of all dangers in the room. If it did rugs of smothering, animated armor, flying swords, etc would never have been invented(in fantasy world) or be in the monster manual as passive perception checks would always root them out.