5e invisibility and Detect Magic

[Hriston]

Remember though the golems description

"Blind Obedience. When its creator or possessor is on hand to command it, a golem performs flawlessly. If the golem is left without instructions or is incapacitated, it continues to follow its last orders to the best of its ability. When it can't fulfill its orders, a golem might react violently-or stand and do nothing. A golem that has been given conflicting orders sometimes alternates between them. A golem can't think or act for itself. Though it understands its commands perfectly, it has no grasp of language beyond that understanding, and can't be reasoned with or tricked with words.

Constructed Nature. A golem doesn't require air, food, drink, or sleep. "


The Golems spirit has no ambition of itself, and I don't think a golem has any mechanical system that makes noise in of itself. IMO if its not moving it emits no sound at all. Like above though, if it does move I don't see how it could not be heard unless in a silenced area or a very loud one.

An iron golem has a jointed body made of iron plates that would make a tremendous grinding noise at the slightest movement. Its joints, if not oiled sufficiently, would creak, even with very small motions. It follows orders to the best of its ability, but even if ordered to stand perfectly still and to make no sound whatsoever, its ability to do so may be somewhat limited as evidenced by its DEX score. Likewise, standing and doing nothing isn't the same as deliberately remaining silent for the purpose of avoiding notice.

As far as detect magic, I am used to the old detect magic where auras had a strength, I just reread the spell. Although if you detect magic but cant see an aura after taking an action then there must be an invisible creature or object in the room somewhere. That might be good enough to grant that PC a perception check or investigation check to deduce the general location.

It might, but it depends on what steps the PC takes to search or investigate the invisible source of magic, which requires some input from the player, I would think.

 

[smbakeresq]

I never said that "you just wouldn't see it at all until the first strike came in," or anthing similar, so I'm confused as to who you're agreeing with.

But, back to the point I was making, it's your assumption that golems make no noise, not the rules'. The rules say iron golems have a -1 stealth check only. From that, you may surmise that iron golems are not usually successful at hiding. Why is up for grabs, but assuming that iron golems are entirely silent when standing still is on you, not the rules.

My point is that if you bring assumptions into the mix and pre-narrate things like perfectly silent iron golems, the issue with how the rules work isn't the rules, it's your assumptions.

Because it says in the monster description, which you probably glossed over. It does not explicitly state a golem that is "standing and doing nothing" or awaiting a trigger is silent, that is correct. I drew that inference that a motionless construct that does not breathe nor have a heartbeat nor any type of mechanical automation would make no sound. To help me out list 5 to 10 sounds you think a motionless construct would
make?


My point is not everything is in the rules. No where in rules does it state that the golem has a -1 stealth check, you have to look at the dex score, and then apply that to a skill that they don't a listing for, and then infer that a motionless, invisible golem is intelligent enough and wise enough while animated by a spirit that only lives to obey to take an action to attempt to conceal itself as an iron golem using the stealth skill:

"Stealth. Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard. "


My argument is that if a golem is there and invisible then someone cast invisible on it in some way shape or form and it is either abandoned and just inanimate or ordered to stand motionless and silent (otherwise it automatically gives away its position by making sound) and then do something when a trigger occurs. Its not even in initiative so there is the argument that it cant even take actions yet.

Your argument is that it is bad at concealing itself while invisible and motionless which means it must be making noise somehow to give away its location where in its description it never mentions any noise that it makes at all under any circumstances. There is also no rule that says a creature that weighs thousands of pounds make noise when it walks at all, it is assumed by the ruleset that you would know that. While the stealth action rules state that its stealth check would be -1 I wouldn't allow a stealth check if it tried to sneak up on someone as I would infer (but not in the rules anywhere) that it would make a lot of noise while it walks, so much so that it couldn't sneak up on you.



And you partially quoted something I typed to set up a sort of straw man argument which is stupid and absurd when trying to make an argument and only done by those trying to deceive. If you quote the full sentence then you would understand I was referring back to you stating that you wouldn't even make a roll part of your argument.


Jesus do people really play this rigid, absolutist, completely conformist games where no logical conclusions and deductions and inferred knowledge is allowed in? I saw this in the jump rule argument, that some people play that a STR 18 pc can jump 18' %100 of the time but one inch further and its DC 20 check and a huge failure rate and I thought it was an aberration.

 

[smbakeresq]

An iron golem has a jointed body made of iron plates that would make a tremendous grinding noise at the slightest movement. Its joints, if not oiled sufficiently, would creak, even with very small motions. It follows orders to the best of its ability, but even if ordered to stand perfectly still and to make no sound whatsoever, its ability to do so may be somewhat limited as evidenced by its DEX score. Likewise, standing and doing nothing isn't the same as deliberately remaining silent for the purpose of avoiding notice.



It might, but it depends on what steps the PC takes to search or investigate the invisible source of magic, which requires some input from the player, I would think.

According to Ovinomancer none of that occurs when a golem moves as it is not explicitly stated in the description. You can't infer that a metal creature that weighs thousands of pound makes noise when it moves as it is not stated at all just like you cant infer that a motionless, lifeless construct would be silent when not moving and taking no actions. I will put a microphone by my car to record all the sounds it makes when it is sitting in my driveway with the engine off and completely cooled down from driving so you don't hear the heat dissipation.


It sounds absurd when you put it like that doesn't it? Doing nothing is different then trying to remain silent, but its a construct that is not alive as we think it is, it needs no air, so you wouldn't hear breath. It has no heartbeat or circulatory system as an organic being would. I guess you could say the spirit that animates would make noise of some form, but the spirit is described as having no will of its own.

If it was animated by an air spirit I could see it, the air moving around. That's the argument for the invisible stalker, you cant see it and all you hear is the wind (stealth check +10.) This is a tiny earth spirit that just sits there with the will to do nothing but obey.

I have seen these arguments before, that passive perception lets you always detect an inanimate motionless object like a rug of smothering that is just sitting on the floor like a real rug since its stealth bonus is only +2 so its passive stealth would be 12. Those rules for the rug though state it is specifically "False Appearance. While the rug remains motionless, it is indistinguishable from a normal rug" which to me means you will never be allowed a check to perceive it as anything else unless you take a specific action to check it out. I understand that the golem rules do not include that specific language. A fully visible but motionless Iron Golem to me would be just like an Iron Statue and I would describe it as such to the players, it would not have to make a stealth check to conceal itself as an inanimate iron statue of itself, and your passive perception wouldn't let you detect it as an iron golem automatically. If you took an action to check it out, sure.


I understand though that the explanation in the paragraph above is not specifically stated in the rules and that many DMs (it seems) would have the PCs instantly notice a motionless iron golem as an iron golem and not a statue right away as the PC passive checks would beat the golems passive stealth check (9). I used passive stealth since a motionless golem waiting for a trigger or order is taking the stealth action over and over so would be an average result for a task done repeatedly or 9 for the Golem. At least one PC will have a passive perception of 9 or more in every group.

 

[Oofta]

I never said that "you just wouldn't see it at all until the first strike came in," or anthing similar, so I'm confused as to who you're agreeing with.

But, back to the point I was making, it's your assumption that golems make no noise, not the rules'. The rules say iron golems have a -1 stealth check only. From that, you may surmise that iron golems are not usually successful at hiding. Why is up for grabs, but assuming that iron golems are entirely silent when standing still is on you, not the rules.

My point is that if you bring assumptions into the mix and pre-narrate things like perfectly silent iron golems, the issue with how the rules work isn't the rules, it's your assumptions.

The assumptions are based on a logical reading of the rules. We know the golem is not a living creature, it's a construct. No breathing, no heartbeat, nothing. Probably quite noisy when activated, but we know it does nothing unless it's instructed to do so.

You may assume they make a ticking noise like an antique grandfather clock, but the rules don't say that. They're a big hunk of inanimate iron until activated. They make as much noise as a parked car that doesn't have the engine running.

There are times we need to make rulings based on logic.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Because it says in the monster description, which you probably glossed over. It does not explicitly state a golem that is "standing and doing nothing" or awaiting a trigger is silent, that is correct. I drew that inference that a motionless construct that does not breathe nor have a heartbeat nor any type of mechanical automation would make no sound. To help me out list 5 to 10 sounds you think a motionless construct would
make?

Not sure how you say I glossed over the description while simultaneously admitting that description doesn't say golems are silent. :/

For noises: thrumming, humming, clicking, grinding, squealing, knocking, scraping, whistling, sussuruss, pinging, groaning, eerie piping, etc. Since there's no fixed construction or description details about iron golems or hiw magic animates them, essentially whatever you choose.

My point is not everything is in the rules. No where in rules does it state that the golem has a -1 stealth check, you have to look at the dex score, and then apply that to a skill that they don't a listing for, and then infer that a motionless, invisible golem is intelligent enough and wise enough while animated by a spirit that only lives to obey to take an action to attempt to conceal itself as an iron golem using the stealth skill:

Sigh. If I have the iron golem roll a DEX(stealth) check, what's it's modifier, according to the rules?

"Stealth. Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard. "


My argument is that if a golem is there and invisible then someone cast invisible on it in some way shape or form and it is either abandoned and just inanimate or ordered to stand motionless and silent (otherwise it automatically gives away its position by making sound) and then do something when a trigger occurs. Its not even in initiative so there is the argument that it cant even take actions yet.

Your assumption is that it is silent. You've decided this before checking. You should narrate accordingly.

Your argument is that it is bad at concealing itself while invisible and motionless which means it must be making noise somehow to give away its location where in its description it never mentions any noise that it makes at all under any circumstances. There is also no rule that says a creature that weighs thousands of pounds make noise when it walks at all, it is assumed by the ruleset that you would know that. While the stealth action rules state that its stealth check would be -1 I wouldn't allow a stealth check if it tried to sneak up on someone as I would infer (but not in the rules anywhere) that it would make a lot of noise while it walks, so much so that it couldn't sneak up on you.

If you fail a check to be hidden, you've either been seen to made noise or been located some other way. That's the rule. I don't have to determine ahead of time which occurred on a failed hiding attempt. It could be many things. My point is that if you fail to hide, somehow you are located. If you pre-narrate complete silence, that choice is what's causing you problems on a failed check, not the check. If, instead, you don't pre-narrate part of the gilem's attempt to hide, you have open options to say it made enough noise doing something and tgat's what caused the failed check.

And you partially quoted something I typed to set up a sort of straw man argument which is stupid and absurd when trying to make an argument and only done by those trying to deceive. If you quote the full sentence then you would understand I was referring back to you stating that you wouldn't even make a roll part of your argument.

I have fully quoted you every time. I'm not setting up a strawman, I'm saying that your issue is pre-narrating the outcome, which you are when you assume the golem is completely silent and motionless before you determine if it's hidden.

Jesus do people really play this rigid, absolutist, completely conformist games where no logical conclusions and deductions and inferred knowledge is allowed in? I saw this in the jump rule argument, that some people play that a STR 18 pc can jump 18' %100 of the time but one inch further and its DC 20 check and a huge failure rate and I thought it was an aberration.

Lol. My entire argument is "don't paint yourself into corners, leave outs so the game can progress without predefined outcomes" and you accuse me of being rigid! Man, made my day!

To enunciate: if you are uncertain if the invisibke golem is hidden, roll the check and then decide the fiction. If you insist on deciding fiction that contradicts the roll, don't roll to begin with, just narrate. In the former, you're not assuming silent golems, but this golem may be silent if ot rolls well. In the latter, you've assumed silent golems already and then complain if a failed check doesn't match your established fiction. I say use the former method, and play to find out if the golem is silent; don't assume it is.

 

[Oofta]

An iron golem has a jointed body made of iron plates that would make a tremendous grinding noise at the slightest movement. Its joints, if not oiled sufficiently, would creak, even with very small motions. It follows orders to the best of its ability, but even if ordered to stand perfectly still and to make no sound whatsoever, its ability to do so may be somewhat limited as evidenced by its DEX score. Likewise, standing and doing nothing isn't the same as deliberately remaining silent for the purpose of avoiding notice.



It might, but it depends on what steps the PC takes to search or investigate the invisible source of magic, which requires some input from the player, I would think.

Why would it creak? Why would it shift? It has no muscles that would get stiff. It never needs to scratch it's nose unless ordered to do so. It' doesn't need to be told to stand perfectly still. Unless commanded otherwise, it's just a big inanimate hunk of metal.

 

[Oofta]

For noises: thrumming, humming, clicking, grinding, squealing, knocking, scraping, whistling, sussuruss, pinging, groaning, eerie piping, etc. Since there's no fixed construction or description details about iron golems or hiw magic animates them, essentially whatever you choose.

I would just note that you seem to be the one adding to the rules. Nothing in the description of iron golems indicates that they're some kind of steam-punk locomotive. Cool if they are in your world, but the description never says that. It just says they're not particularly graceful.

If you want to add noises, more power to you. It's perfectly legitimate. It's just as legitimate that an iron golem is just a big metal statue unless responding to a command.

There are other monsters that could reasonably be perfectly quiet if not actively moving like mimics (just a chest) or skeletons (a pile of bones).

 

[Gwarok]

Assuming someone is invisible by a spell or similar magic, how Detect Magic works against it?

The caster of Detect Magic spell will see the aura surrounding a invisibility creature. Should that mean the caster can technically "see" the invisible creature? Or should the caster know the exact location of the invisible creature but still suffer disadvantage on his attack roll and such?

It is pretty specific that using your action to do more than sense the presence of magic only works on visible objects. Seems odd they'd include that term if it also applied to invisible objects. Also, would seriously call into question why we'd have See Invisible, a 2nd level spell.

 

[CleverName1993]

How do we go from you detect magic but don't get a specific location because you can't see the aura to an argument about whether or not iron golems toot when standing still because they have a low dex?

If you look at the rules they just say that dex is Physical agility, reflexes, balance, poise. and A Dexterity check can model any attempt to move nimbly, quickly, or quietly, or to keep from falling on tricky footing.


An iron statue isn't moving so where does it say low dexterity makes it noisy?

 

[SkidAce]

For noises: thrumming, humming, clicking, grinding, squealing, knocking, scraping, whistling, sussuruss, pinging, groaning, eerie piping, etc. Since there's no fixed construction or description details about iron golems or hiw magic animates them, essentially whatever you choose.

Are you assuming that they make noise?

The logic applies both ways I would think.


Things like this will always be a judgement call, there is no right or wrong.