5e invisibility and Detect Magic

[Ovinomancer]

This is on the right path. Look at Stealth skill:

Stealth. Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard.

In this case the Golem isn't trying to do anything, it is motionless until its trigger is activated. Its not even trying to be silent, it is silent, not making sounds and not making tracks, so it has the Invisible Condition, impossible to detect by normal means.


If it was an invisible statue no reasonable DM would allow someone to perceive it, you would make them describe what they are doing, search the room, etc. like the invisible object rules. If the golem was completely visible, I might allow a check to tell that is in fact a golem as opposed to an actual statue.

In the case of my example of the invisible stalker, it does make some noise all the time, but with stealth of 10 its passive stealth would be 20, so its mostly silent.

Why do you assume iron golems can be as still as a statue at will? This is a pre-narration. If you insist in this don't roll.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

The Hide action is one way to become hidden. Being invisible, or being in total darkness achieves the same effect, without the need of the action. You are effectively hidden while invisible.

No, you aren't. To be hidden you must be unseen and unheard and unnoticed.

For example, an invisible creature walking on a surface covered in dust or leaves is not hidden. You know where they are because you can see their foot marks. Even if the ground is clean you know where they are by sound (e.g. rustling clothing, rattling gear, footsteps, breathing) or by the breeze of their passing.

To become hidden, the unseen creature must take steps to muffle its sound and obscure its tracks. In combat, this generally requires the Hide Action.

Ruling that unseen = hidden causing misunderstanding, as seen by the number of posts on forums like this one. It also makes a level 2 spell way too powerful and creatures like invisible stalkers and poltergeists (and Assassin Rogues) much stronger.

 

[Hriston]

Nothing is wrong with the DM making that rule. But the invisibility condition states it would be impossible to see, since it isn't making noise (unless the DM says it is) and isn't moving (definition of the example.) I would treat it as an object, since it is a construct that wont move unless activated.

That’s essentially what I’m advocating. If the DM doesn’t like the golem’s chances of staying hidden based on a DEX (Stealth) check, s/he can set a DC to notice it as one would for a hidden object, which is, in effect, setting the result of the check. A DC of 20 to notice the golem seems appropriate considering the highest result the golem could achieve on a DEX check is 19, so a 20 would always beat it, but situational modifiers could apply as well.

I would leave whether the golem makes any noise up to the result of the PCs' WIS (Perception) checks. Certainly, creaks and groans could emanate from such a large machine made of iron, especially one that is sentient and may have only recently settled into place.

This also applies to the other example, an invisible trip wire. You need to explain what actions you are taking to find it.

It seems the relevant action you need to take to find a hidden invisible golem as you enter the room in which it’s standing is to keep watch for hidden threats. If you’re attention is focused on some other activity, you won’t have a chance of noticing it, but if you’re alert for danger, you might.

As far as the OP, in the case of a Golem, it is a massive magical construct, a detect magic spell wouldn't outline it but would vector in as a strong magical presence in the corner of the room.

My reading of the spell doesn’t include direction or intensity. You would just sense the presence of magic when within 30 feet of the golem.

 

[Coroc]

Since 5e got rid of the detect evil munchkinism I guess that RAI detect magic should not work with invisible targets. Means it should not give away invisible items or creatures.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

My reading of the spell doesn’t include direction or intensity. You would just sense the presence of magic when within 30 feet of the golem.

Of course, if you are carrying at least one magic item then you always sense the presence of magic within 30 feet.

 

[Oofta]

Of course, if you are carrying at least one magic item then you always sense the presence of magic within 30 feet.

I'll have to remember that one. Wait for the wizard to drop everything magical ... have the party get 30 feet away ... ambush!

P.S. I kid. I probably wouldn't do that. Unless it's Bob. He knows why.

 

[Hriston]

Of course, if you are carrying at least one magic item then you always sense the presence of magic within 30 feet.

It's a bummer when you burn your action to identify the source of the magic you sense, only to see an aura around the magic staff you're holding.

 

[smbakeresq]

Why do you assume iron golems can be as still as a statue at will? This is a pre-narration. If you insist in this don't roll.

That's the point I am making. A golem does nothing without direction, it is given a trigger by its creator. Its always been that way, and its in the description

"Blind Obedience. When its creator or possessor is on hand to command it, a golem performs flawlessly. If the golem is left without instructions or is incapacitated, it continues to follow its last orders to the best of its ability. When it can't fulfill its orders, a golem might react violently-or stand and do nothing. A golem that has been given conflicting orders sometimes alternates between them. A golem can't think or act for itself. Though it understands its commands perfectly, it has no grasp of language beyond that understanding, and can't be reasoned with or tricked with words. "

The problem as presented stated a motionless, invisible golem. It is either standing and doing nothing or it is awaiting some sort of trigger to do something. I figured it has no heartbeat or breath, and barring movement makes no sound. I wouldn't roll at all, it would appear as a Iron Statue of some sort to normal observation if you could see it.


I wouldn't even roll a stealth check for it most cases, IMO its steps would shake the ground and it would make a lot of noise if it moved unless you really hit it with the WD40. The eyes do seem to glow so I could see the PCs noticing that to tell its a golem. It is also infused with an elemental spirit that could give it away.


Yes you are correct though, you just wouldn't see it at all until the first strike came in. To make your iron golems tougher remember they have dark vision 120 and that standing in a fire damage area means they heal all the time. Traps that fill the golems room with fire are very effective.

 

[smbakeresq]

That’s essentially what I’m advocating. If the DM doesn’t like the golem’s chances of staying hidden based on a DEX (Stealth) check, s/he can set a DC to notice it as one would for a hidden object, which is, in effect, setting the result of the check. A DC of 20 to notice the golem seems appropriate considering the highest result the golem could achieve on a DEX check is 19, so a 20 would always beat it, but situational modifiers could apply as well.

I would leave whether the golem makes any noise up to the result of the PCs' WIS (Perception) checks. Certainly, creaks and groans could emanate from such a large machine made of iron, especially one that is sentient and may have only recently settled into place.



It seems the relevant action you need to take to find a hidden invisible golem as you enter the room in which it’s standing is to keep watch for hidden threats. If you’re attention is focused on some other activity, you won’t have a chance of noticing it, but if you’re alert for danger, you might.



My reading of the spell doesn’t include direction or intensity. You would just sense the presence of magic when within 30 feet of the golem.

Remember though the golems description

"Blind Obedience. When its creator or possessor is on hand to command it, a golem performs flawlessly. If the golem is left without instructions or is incapacitated, it continues to follow its last orders to the best of its ability. When it can't fulfill its orders, a golem might react violently-or stand and do nothing. A golem that has been given conflicting orders sometimes alternates between them. A golem can't think or act for itself. Though it understands its commands perfectly, it has no grasp of language beyond that understanding, and can't be reasoned with or tricked with words.

Constructed Nature. A golem doesn't require air, food, drink, or sleep. "


The Golems spirit has no ambition of itself, and I don't think a golem has any mechanical system that makes noise in of itself. IMO if its not moving it emits no sound at all. Like above though, if it does move I don't see how it could not be heard unless in a silenced area or a very loud one.


As far as detect magic, I am used to the old detect magic where auras had a strength, I just reread the spell. Although if you detect magic but cant see an aura after taking an action then there must be an invisible creature or object in the room somewhere. That might be good enough to grant that PC a perception check or investigation check to deduce the general location.

 

[Ovinomancer]

That's the point I am making. A golem does nothing without direction, it is given a trigger by its creator. Its always been that way, and its in the description

"Blind Obedience. When its creator or possessor is on hand to command it, a golem performs flawlessly. If the golem is left without instructions or is incapacitated, it continues to follow its last orders to the best of its ability. When it can't fulfill its orders, a golem might react violently-or stand and do nothing. A golem that has been given conflicting orders sometimes alternates between them. A golem can't think or act for itself. Though it understands its commands perfectly, it has no grasp of language beyond that understanding, and can't be reasoned with or tricked with words. "

The problem as presented stated a motionless, invisible golem. It is either standing and doing nothing or it is awaiting some sort of trigger to do something. I figured it has no heartbeat or breath, and barring movement makes no sound. I wouldn't roll at all, it would appear as a Iron Statue of some sort to normal observation if you could see it.


I wouldn't even roll a stealth check for it most cases, IMO its steps would shake the ground and it would make a lot of noise if it moved unless you really hit it with the WD40. The eyes do seem to glow so I could see the PCs noticing that to tell its a golem. It is also infused with an elemental spirit that could give it away.


Yes you are correct though, you just wouldn't see it at all until the first strike came in. To make your iron golems tougher remember they have dark vision 120 and that standing in a fire damage area means they heal all the time. Traps that fill the golems room with fire are very effective.

I never said that "you just wouldn't see it at all until the first strike came in," or anthing similar, so I'm confused as to who you're agreeing with.

But, back to the point I was making, it's your assumption that golems make no noise, not the rules'. The rules say iron golems have a -1 stealth check only. From that, you may surmise that iron golems are not usually successful at hiding. Why is up for grabs, but assuming that iron golems are entirely silent when standing still is on you, not the rules.

My point is that if you bring assumptions into the mix and pre-narrate things like perfectly silent iron golems, the issue with how the rules work isn't the rules, it's your assumptions.