D&D 5E "5E is of no interest to me" - really? Already?

[Mercurius]

Just a month and a half after the announcement of 5E, aka D&DNext, we're already seeing tons of comments to the effect of "5E is of no interest to me" or "I'm very disappointed with 5E" etc. No offense to anyone in particular, but I just have to shake my head. Are we really at that point already? It has been a month and a half - no, not even!

Need I remind these gentle folks that:

A) We're not even at the open playtest stage, so few if any of us have actually seen the rules, let alone played any version of the game
B) D&D Experience represents either a pre-alpha or early alpha version of the game
C) The point of the open playtest is to get feedback on the alpha version of the game, so...
D) Even when we get the open playtest material, it is going to be a very rough version of the game that WotC will (presumably) fine-tune through feedback.

Can we at least get deep into open playtesting before writing the game off, if not the beta stage?

Let me be clear: I am not writing this post to rile people up but to try to nip this sort of thinking in the bud before it snowballs into another edition ** please don't try to bypass the profanity filter - Plane Sailing, Admin **, and hopefully calm folks down with a simple reminder: we're very early in this process. Very little, if anything, is set in stone - at least that we've seen. (And of course, it goes without saying that even if you don't like 5E, there are plenty of other versions of the game with endless material, so no need to get too upset! The worse-case scenario is that WotC will produce a version of the game that you don't like but probably don't hate as much as Edition X, so at least that's something!).

 

[Bedrockgames]

I certainly have not written it off and remain optimistic, but I think I understand where these people are coming from. I think it comes less from rushing to judgment and more from the fact that many have started to realize they don't need WOTC's version of D&D to play. A lot ofthem are probably giving it as much consideration as they would give any game. For example I haven't played the one ring yet, at first I was interest but the few tidbits I have heard since its release tell me it probably isn't for me. In this case I have about the same amount of information for one ring as 4E. It isn't that I am closed minded. It is just that one ring is a single game among dozens I would like to try. D&D is becoming one game among the dozens people want to play. We aren't all staking everything in dungeons and dragons and people don't plan on investing 90 dollars or more in a product when the early buzz suggests it isn't a good match for them.

 

[trancejeremy]

Because I think many people have reached a point where they aren't simply going to buy a new Dungeons & Dragons just because it has the D&D name on it.

WOTC burnt a lot of bridges with 4e. For 5e, it's going to have to re-build them without burning bridges to 4e.

People aren't just lining up to throw money at WOTC, not when there are alternatives to those past editions that WOTC discarded. 3.x fans have Pathfinder and old school fans have a wealth of material, too thanks to OSRIC/LL/and other retro-clones.

The other thing is, they really haven't changed designers. Oh sure, they brought Monte Cook back, but if they really wanted to get a real old school perspective, why not go for someone further back?

Frank Metzner is only 62 - if not a full time job, why not hire him as a consultant? He was behind what some consider to be the best version of D&D, BECMI. His perspective would be very valuable...

 

[Balesir]

I agree with Bedrockgames (just thought I'd better document that! ).

I haven't regarded D&D as the "one, true roleplaying game" since around 1980, and it has become clear that D&D Next won't do what any of my current "focus games" do better than they already do it, so it's currently just a(nother) "hmm - might be interesting; keep an eye on it" game. If it shows itself capable of producing a coherent, fun game experience that I hadn't realised I wanted, I'll go for it. If not, I'll stick to what I already have.

 

[Bedrockgames]

WOTC burnt a lot of bridges with 4e. For 5e, it's going ...

they burned bridges for sure, and 4E is part of that, but this stuff happened long before. When they released 3.5 and released all the same books for it they had for 3E, that was a problem for lots of gamers. The overal quality of flavor material was always an issue for me. By the end of 3.5 it was clear they were going in a very gamey direction that just didn't interest me (i first noticed with Castle Ravenloft- the remake od the AD&D module). the PDF thing was another huge blunder. At this stage for me their whole business model seems unrealistic and predicated on magicnthe gathering style stream of releases and expansions.

This stuff is important because wotc needs to understand it isn't only about putting out a good version of D&D (there are lot of good games out there to choose from these days). They also need to reconnect with their customers and out out the kinds of supplements people want.

 

[delericho]

I won't say that 5e is of no interest to me, but my initial enthusiasm has long since worn off. With every week that passes, and with every "Legends & Lore" article I read, my interest in the game drops further.

Basically, I'm finding it increasingly hard to care.

They really need to get that playtest started. The sooner, the better.

 

[avin]

Some people won't buy 5E, just because it doesn't play or feel as their edition of choice... but they will complain anyway.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I agree with Bedrockgames (just thought I'd better document that! ).

I just took a screen shot

I haven't regarded D&D as the "one, true roleplaying game" since around 1980, and it has become clear that D&D Next won't do what any of my current "focus games" do better than they already do it, so it's currently just a(nother) "hmm - might be interesting; keep an eye on it" game. If it shows itself capable of producing a coherent, fun game experience that I hadn't realised I wanted, I'll go for it. If not, I'll stick to what I already have.

Yes, it is a very different environment these days. There is a game out there for every flavor of play and genre, made by companies with a lot more flexibility and agility than WOTC has. What is more, the fragmentation of the base when 4E came out wasn't just an abstract marketing concept, it was a real break of social connections between people who gamed together for years. I saw it first hand with a number of people. You literally had guys who suddenly couldn't game together any more because disagrements over 3e and 4e highlited fundamental differences in style they were after. People have gone off in different directions, as a result tried diffferent things.

 

[Oni]

I've never understood the need of people on the internet who have no interest in something to have to make sure everyone else knows it. Why not just go do what you are interested in?

And if you are interested, or want to be, but there is a barrier to entry, constructive criticism is a lot more helpful than declarations and ultimatums.

 

[Raith5]

I won't say that 5e is of no interest to me, but my initial enthusiasm has long since worn off. With every week that passes, and with every "Legends & Lore" article I read, my interest in the game drops further.

Basically, I'm finding it increasingly hard to care.

They really need to get that playtest started. The sooner, the better.

I am sad to say that this is my view too. I like 4th ed and would like to see those mechanics fixed up, opened up to a wider variety of play styles and a slightly more gritty baseline. I dont think that this is going to happen.

I hope that WOTC can unify the hobby but I have to say that most of the time that I feel that WOTC should both 1) make the best gritty old style pre 4th ed version of D&D possible and 2) a heroic extension of 4th ed. I am just not sold that these differences can be bridged in rulebooks that can be coherent, readable and easy to play.

They just seem to be on beeline to a system that ultimately annoys everyone and satisfies no-one. I hope Im wrong.

 

[Ahnehnois]

People can make decisions for purely financial or personal reasons that have nothing to do with game rules.

Moreover, the basic design goals and some details are also significant. If you'd told me before 4e about its basic design goals, I could have told you I wasn't interested without reading the PHB (though I have paged through it).

 

[kaomera]

Personally it's not so much ''already'' as ''yet''. I've seen nothing to really indicate that the next edition isn't just retreading the same ground that really didn't work for me in 3e and 4e.

Of course I'm sure I'll experience the same swell of irrational enthusiasm that I have for the previous two and a half editions, probably snap up all of the core books and try and run it. So if it's any more of what I want I don't expect to miss out. But at this point I just expect (eventual) disappointment from D&D.

 

[malkav666]

I don't think that "I have no interest in 5e" is an ultimatum. It just means that what has been shown to the general public is conceptual and vague. You got some folks who have played various versions or concepts of the game at private NDA bound playtests, you've got Monte firing potshots at random themes and ideas with silly polls that seem have a negative reception because they lack clarity. And finally you have the idea of bridging all the fans of various editions together to play one game to rule them all at the same table. Seems like they are shooting at the moon during the day.

I have to say its very intriguing to say the least, but its hard to get excited about colored puffs of smoke. Especially when there is no customer demand for 5e IMO. There is a WOTC need for a 5e, but I don't think the customers really NEED or even necessarily WANT it. Oldschool players have new products, 3.x players have new products, 2e players have new products, and 4e players have new products. So 5th edition is a product of WOTC's owners fiscal needs, not really because the hobby is stagnant and needs a new choice. I understand fiscal needs. I have them and every successful company I have ever done business lives by them, so I don't begrudge WOTC the right to make decisions based on them. But if you take WOTCs business needs out of the equation 5th edition doesn't make much sense to me in its timing.

But in the end I have been shown nothing to capture and HOLD my interest with 5e so far. So my general stance is hopeful but kind of unimpressed by the process so far. I have been shown concepts and ideas and I have pondered and discussed them with my peers and will likely continue to do so. I see a community broken up into pods of folks that all have a version of the game they love that is currently being supported in some way or another being told by WOTC "hey we have something new and its got some stuff that is really going to make you happy". When the pods say "cool tell me more Dr. WOTC", they get "Soon". Soon as presentation of whats to come really only works in a vacuum where the are no other options or those options suck. I think everyone playing D&D or a variant has access to fresh takes and currently supported options. So "soon" just doesn't cut the cheese all by it self for very long.

I think they need to go ahead and open the gates a little bit and let out some of that information into the wild if they want to generate lasting interest. It becomes increasingly hard to be amped about the upcoming when I like the current a great deal and the upcoming is being presented in smoke and mirrors. That being said even though I currently lack enthusiasm and interest in the way 5e has been presented to me thus far, I remain interested in the concept of 5e and check for new information several times a week. I understand they are being careful and rightly so IMO, but so far the public has really been shown nothing.

I think in the end OP you have a lot of folks who have no interest in what has been shown so far, which isnt much. What little we have been shown most of us already have access to. 5e is going to be a hard sell for WOTC because of this. Take your 3e and 4e crowds for example; why would a member of either of those groups get excited about a purposed game that compromises with the design style they do not like when they have new fresh options being made for an edition/flavor that supports everything they like with no compromises? This applies to any group of players who have a strong preference in current/previous edition especially when there are hot of the press products that strictly support the styles and desires of those editions SPECIFICALLY.

So don't get the undergarments twisted up just yet. I think we will see the real levels of interest when we start to see the data from WOTC. This edition they won't be enjoying the "Only Show in Town" status that inflated all of their previous editions initial sales(3e/4e). They have to actually generate interest this time around, and successfully market and sell their game. And the game has to stand on its own, as the definition of D&D in the mindshare of the fans has grown to include other offerings from other companies. So its no longer "man Im playing this OTHER game but there is a new edition of D&D coming out I should check that out for the nostalgia, I mean I liked D&D before edition x" but rather "Im playing a version of D&D not published by WOTC, and there is a new WOTC version coming out. Hmm Ill take a peep but if it doesn't give me all the nostalgia and happy that my current D&D fix is giving me, then i'm gonna pass"

What we are seeing is not a disinterest in D&D but rather focused interest in certain types of D&D and a lack of information on whether or not WOTC's new offering will meet the expectations being currently set by those sub-markets and the companies that cater to them. This will all change for weal or woe when WOTC quits talking big picture and starts in with the minutiae. How about those public playtests?

Sorry for the long post.

love,

malkav

 

[DaveMage]

Because I think many people have reached a point where they aren't simply going to buy a new Dungeons & Dragons just because it has the D&D name on it.

WOTC burnt a lot of bridges with 4e. For 5e, it's going to have to re-build them without burning bridges to 4e.

People aren't just lining up to throw money at WOTC, not when there are alternatives to those past editions that WOTC discarded. 3.x fans have Pathfinder and old school fans have a wealth of material, too thanks to OSRIC/LL/and other retro-clones.

All of the above.

 

[Grazzt]

Because I think many people have reached a point where they aren't simply going to buy a new Dungeons & Dragons just because it has the D&D name on it.

WOTC burnt a lot of bridges with 4e. For 5e, it's going to have to re-build them without burning bridges to 4e.

People aren't just lining up to throw money at WOTC, not when there are alternatives to those past editions that WOTC discarded. 3.x fans have Pathfinder and old school fans have a wealth of material, too thanks to OSRIC/LL/and other retro-clones.

Yep. Agreed. I've also heard/read a number of people are getting tired of the badly worded polls and poorly written L&L (and other) articles. Several think they're nothing more than a PR stunt. (Seems some are pushing people away or causing them to lose interest, at least for now.)

 

[Yora]

I won't say that 5e is of no interest to me, but my initial enthusiasm has long since worn off. With every week that passes, and with every "Legends & Lore" article I read, my interest in the game drops further.

I don't even read them anymore. If there's one thing I learned in the weeks before DDXP, it was that Monte Cook is just really terrible when it comes to putting his thoughts into words that he presents the public. Lots of his statements didn't make any sense and were then later elaborated on by others from the design team, who usually were able to put it in a way that appears reasonable, but actually means more the opposite of what the original statement seemed to imply. The "new edition is compatible with material from all other editions" thing comes to mind. He didn't exactly say that, but he strongly implied it, until a few days later someone else rephrased it in a way that outrightly said "there is no compatibility". But I've seen statements from Cook years before that, which also made as much sense.
Not everyone is good at making public announcements, and this doesn't imply anything about his qualifications as a game designer. Just why they keep allowing him to write the L&L articles is beyond me.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Well I'm frickin' tired of the negativity.

It's one thing to be cynical about WotC's ability to deliver on its promises, but I think too many people around here have convinced themselves that 5e is going to be nothing but what they hate about D&D.

If after six months of the playtest rules, it's obvious what the shape of the game is going to be, I can see dismissing it without trying it first. But WotC is attempting to do this project in the way we all said we wanted (up front, with early playtesting and feedback) and I think they deserve our enthusiasm, at least for the attempt.

At least wish them good luck, people.

 

[Nebulous]

i'm still very interested in 5e. We know so little about it, and so much is subject to change. I was tired of 3e, and 4e left a bad taste in my mouth, so i welcome a new iteration of D&D with open arms. And if i don't like the final ruleset, i just won't buy it.

 

[erleni]

I will judge 5e on its own merits when it will come out. When I first went through the 4e PHB I told to myself "what the hell are these encounter and daily powers?", and then after a few weeks 4e became my favourite iteration (as Wizards would put it) and I have no desire to go back to previous ones.

But maybe there will be a reason to move to 5e. Let it come and be fair towards it.

 

[Yora]

I actually don't see why people are ynoyed about negative reactions. If people just don't care, they won't visit 5th Edition forums to harras other users. And those people who do are just idiots who would behave that way about everything and its opposite. Though to be fair, I don't recal seeing anyone of the second category.