D&D 5E (2014) 5e Magic

[Joe Liker]

On the topic of the Magic system, I'm finding that new players are having difficulty parsing the "prepped spells" vs "spell slots". It hard to explain to someone totally new to this kinda thing.

also, MM is auto-hit 3d4+3 that can be spread out if necessary...

I think "slots" is a poor choice of terminology. It makes it sound like an abstract container you fill with a spell to use later, when in fact it's the complete opposite.

Sadly, I'm not sure the English language has a concise, precise word or phrase for the thing a spell slot actually represents. It's not exactly a magic point system; it's more like an "arcane ammo" system, but that sounds dumb.

Maybe they could have referred to them as "spell uses": You get so many spell uses per day. You expend a 3rd level spell use to cast fireball. You can expend a higher-level spell use to increase the number of missiles from a magic missile spell. Too late to change it, though.

Anyway, the best way to explain it is thus:

Spellbook: All the spells you have access to
Prepared spells: All the spells you can fit in your head at one time
Spell slots: The amount of arcane energy you can expend in one day, using any spells you have prepared. (Or just call them spell uses instead of slots!)

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yeah, 'slots' is what a lot of folks have called spells/day for a long time, so it was an obvious one.

It's not very evocative, but neither are a lot of things about the traditional D&D magic system. (As an aside, EGG once mentioned that originally spells were going to have "orders" (or 'powers?') not levels, and that there were going to be a lot of other alternatives so that 'level' didnt' get used for everything).

When you think about it, slots are very un-intuitive and alien to the fantasy genre, so they're really very 'meta-game' or arbitrary (or, since another thread has it rattling around my short-term memory, even 'dissociative'). Traditional Vancian can at least point (only) to that sci-fi classic, the Dying Earth by Jack Vance. Neo-Vancian has no precedent at all in (or peripheral to) the fantasy genre, that I'm aware of.

Still, it's clearly less readily-abuseable than the old-school Mana systems I remember....


Oh, one more thing: neo-Vancian takes from LFQW with one hand, but gives back with the other: spells no longer scale with caster/character level, like they did in 3e & earlier instead scaling with spell level, but, /saves/ now scale with level (proficiency) when, in 3e, they scaled with spell level (and prior to that, didn't scale at all).

 

[Andor]

I think "slots" is a poor choice of terminology. It makes it sound like an abstract container you fill with a spell to use later, when in fact it's the complete opposite.

Well any term they use is going to have some issues, if only becuase it shapes the way people think of the magic system.

Although given the sidebar on the weave as the nature of magic, I might have gone with "threads". Each day your wizards plucks so many threads from the fabric of magic, and when you cast a spell you are weaving the thread back into the fabric in a pattern of your choosing. Higher level slots are thus stronger threads, capable of bearing more of a load, or (depending on how you look at it) more capable of reshaping the fabric of reality.

Honestly the only downside to that terminology is of confusing a few of us grognards who recall the magic threads system from Earthdawn.

 

[GX.Sigma]

I think "slots" is a poor choice of terminology. It makes it sound like an abstract container you fill with a spell to use later, when in fact it's the complete opposite.

The rulebook actually tries to explain this: You start with your slots empty, and when you cast a spell, it "fills" the slot.

 

[Rod Staffwand]

Anyway, the best way to explain it is thus:

Spellbook: All the spells you have access to
Prepared spells: All the spells you can fit in your head at one time
Spell slots: The amount of arcane energy you can expend in one day, using any spells you have prepared. (Or just call them spell uses instead of slots!)

Nicely put.

The pdf has some text about 'filling slots' as you cast and that you can fill a higher level slot with a lower level spell, but the terminology isn't as intuitive.

I do like that a lot of spell scaling is sub-optimal and very linear in most cases. You can get an increased effect by casting cure wounds as a 6th-level spell, but it doesn't give you the same punch as casting heal. On the other hand, you can use a 1st - 5th level slot for cure wounds while you need a 6th and above for heal. Having the lower level spell prepped gives you the most flexibility while having the higher level spell prepped gives you more power. A dedicated healer who wants their bases covered can prep both in lieu of another spell. It makes for interesting choices during spell prep.

Things I noticed when reading the spells:

*Locate creature is blocked by running water 10ft wide!
*Meteor swarm has a range of 1 mile!
*Otto's Irresistible Dance is so essential to play that it had to be included in the Basic Set! [I abhor this spell].
*Shield blocks magic missiles (still!) but not flame bolt or other low-level attack magic. Overly specific corner-case or cool retro feature? You decide!
*Find the Path has M components "a set of divinatory tools—such as bones, ivory sticks, cards, teeth, or carved runes— worth 100 gp and an object from the location you wish to find". Would you let a spellcasting focus stand in for the second component or would that make it too effective?
*Sunburst's M components include fire (?!), which presumably fits just fine in your spell component pouch.
*Heroes' Feast is kinda cool. I can see an NPC caster doing this on the party before sending them off to fight the dragon and save the kingdom.
*Arcane lock seems pretty good for a 2nd level spell with a 25gp cost. It's permanent with the only countermeasures being knocking and dispelling. Shouldn't anything worth stealing be guarded by at least one of these?
*Flaming sphere can be "jumped" across pits up to 10ft wide. Vroom, vroom, wheeee~~~~~!

 

[Joe Liker]

*Shield blocks magic missiles (still!) but not flame bolt or other low-level attack magic. Overly specific corner-case or cool retro feature? You decide!

Neither! It's a necessary counter to magic missile, whose damage cannot be avoided in any other way short of effects that completely block all magic. (Other spells generally have attack rolls or saving throws.)

*Find the Path has M components "a set of divinatory tools—such as bones, ivory sticks, cards, teeth, or carved runes— worth 100 gp and an object from the location you wish to find". Would you let a spellcasting focus stand in for the second component or would that make it too effective?

If the component doesn't have a gp cost, you can substitute a focus, so you can use it here. I think the component is a little too restrictive, to be honest, so I'm glad this is the case.

*Sunburst's M components include fire (?!), which presumably fits just fine in your spell component pouch.

I don't read the component pouch as just this thing you wave around when you cast a spell. I imagine the wizard actually reaching into it for specific components (with a little behind-the-scenes legerdemain to quickly find the thing he wants). In this case, that would be a piece of flint or something that is struck during the casting to make a spark.

*Arcane lock seems pretty good for a 2nd level spell with a 25gp cost. It's permanent with the only countermeasures being knocking and dispelling. Shouldn't anything worth stealing be guarded by at least one of these?

I'm pretty sure it's been approximately this good in every edition (formerly known as wizard lock). But yes, it's great. Do remember, however, that the lock can still be beaten with brute force, though it's much harder than without the spell in place.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I doubt we'll see many splat books. From the way the design has gone, and how the designers have been talking, I think they really want to avoid that sort of thing outside of specific settings. I'm not even sure we'll have a generic Monster Manual 2.

Tangent:
I expect what we'll get is more along the line of campaign settings that will include any additional subclasses that are essential (for instance, Dragonlance would need Knight of Solamnia and Wizard of High Sorcery), as well as iconic monsters and spells that didn't make it into the PHB and MM. New classes will be sharply limited, as will feats. For instance, we'll see Artificer in Eberron, but we won't see Gladiator or Templar in dark sun. Gladiator works fine as a manifestation of the Fighter's Battle Master subclass, and Templar could either fit into current cleric domains, or if necessary have a domain or two of its. A feat would have to be related to some special mystical feature of a campaign setting, or represent a traditional prestige class (maybe something for Red Wizards of Thay, for instance) to be worth making. We will have psionics at some point, with at least one class. I'm expecting 1-3 subclasses, or maybe a second class. Oriental Adventures won't create any new classes, but will offer a few subclasses. Sohei under paladin, new arcane traditions for Wu Jen, perhaps a new domain or two for shaman, maybe a new monk subclass "just 'cause," etc.
/tangent

Concentration is going to be pretty brutal after low levels. It gets rather hard to not get damaged once you're up against AoE attacks or lots of opponents. I'm worried that it's going to be an issue that weakens casters too much, but I'll have to wait and see how it plays. I like the mechanic, but if it is too limiting I might change the save to a static DC 15 or something that isn't an auto-fail at higher levels.

In the playtest they were using "casting" as synonymous with "spell slot," and I preferred it that way. The way it's currently described is obviously an attempt to make the term fit somehow, even recognizing it doesn't really anymore.

 

[Dausuul]

Concentration is a commonly used mechanic, although it's less limiting than in any previous edition of D&D. Basically you can't cast another spell that requires concentration and you don't want to get hit. Movement and combat are fine. It's used as a gating mechanism to control how much nifty stuff you can do at once. Probably these limits will fade with the coming of the splat books.

They seem to have reduced the quadratic wizard problem by giving spells flat damages with increases paid for by consuming higher level spell slots. Seems like it will work although I fully expect splat books to eventually reintroduce (lvl X d6) spells.

Y'know, this automatic assumption that "they'll break all their rules in the splatbooks" is getting annoying. Does anyone have any basis for this assumption? They were admirably disciplined throughout 4E. I see no reason to believe they won't be equally disciplined in 5E.

OTOH "Detect plot" spells like find the path and divination are well supplied.

Find the path was drastically nerfed from 3E: It now requires an object from the place you're trying to get to. Divination remains potentially an issue, but it lets the DM answer with a cryptic rhyme or an omen, which puts some limits on abuse.

 

[Nagol]

<snip>

Concentration is going to be pretty brutal after low levels. It gets rather hard to not get damaged once you're up against AoE attacks or lots of opponents. I'm worried that it's going to be an issue that weakens casters too much, but I'll have to wait and see how it plays. I like the mechanic, but if it is too limiting I might change the save to a static DC 15 or something that isn't an auto-fail at higher levels.

You have to start taking bucketloads of damage to break DC 10. To hit DC 15 , the wizard took 30 hp from the hit. If he's taking several of those he has a much greater problem at hand. What I might be more tempted to do is have the Wizard make a single Concentration check each round and use that result against all attempts to distract him (either individually or with accumulating penalties). That prevents the M16 of Concentration ending -- forcing a lot of small bundles of damage in an effort to make the caster roll low at least once.

 

[Rod Staffwand]

I just reread Find the Path and noticed that it can only lead you to a location you are "familiar" with--presumably one you've been to. That in itself is a pretty big nerf. You can use it to find the vampire lord's secret crypt or the dragon's treasure chamber unless you've been there. In that context, having something from a place your familiar with is not much of a hassle and can easily be ignored for those that want to use focuses or ignore materials completely. It lasts for Concentration, meaning you'll be restricted in spellcasting, especially if combat comes up and there's no freebie ritual version.

I see it most being used to lead the party out of a dungeon or as a time-saving navigation tool. As is, it might be a little underpowered for 6th level, though it may be an absolute life-saver in some types of games, such as OS dungeon crawling.