D&D 5E 5E Maths

[UngeheuerLich]

The worst thing about working out Challenge Rating is the proficiency Bonus is keyed of it, so you end up going round in a circle trying to pin down the exact numbers.

I was worried first too.
Especially npc classes seem to have that issue: 5HD fighter with mutliattack. Still CR 1, and a +2 proficiency bonus, but using multiattack.

I rationalized it that way: PC classes are special and have a special progression od prof bonuse tied to the HD. Other monsters don´t. A Lich even has a higher proficiency bonus than its HD suggest.

For monsters it is easier: why should a high hp but dumb massive ogre should have an especially high prof bonus? Why should a brown bear or an elephant?


Another difficult thing is: If you add say 3 wizard levels to a rakshasa, will it even change the CR? CR is just not granular enough, when 9 levels of wizard seem to be only 6 CR (again NPC).

I wished CR and XP were not too connected, and you could just increase one and lower the other. The former only being an indicator how dangerous it is individually (resitances, special attack, special counter measure) and when a PC should encounter it first, the latter how dangerous it is in a group.

Take the intellect devourer:
in my opinion, the xp seems about right, but CR should be lvl 9 or so, because as it stands now, someone incapacitated by a devourer can´t recover without greater restoration. And will be easily killed, depending how you interpret "protection from evil" working. (Does it restore the brain?)

 

[MoutonRustique]

Just to throw my grain of peppered salt in here :

It will be even harder than that! (left purposefully vague)

What constitutes good design and good CR will change depending on tables - a monster preview from a few days ago had a creature set at CR 4 (I think) that could outright kill a PC of that level range. Many people really liked it, and seemed to think the CR rating was appropriate with regards to its other capabilities since the "I kill you!" power was of very limited use.

Since 5e isn't (supposedly?) directly aiming for the predictability of 4e, a single metric is bound to have a great deal of variance when you factor-in all the preferred play styles...

Right now, we don't even know for certain what CR means. Sure we have the proffered definition, but let us not be so naïve to think designers know exactly what they are creating : I know of no game system that behaves 100% like the designer(s) intended. The true nature of CR will become more apparent as monsters are used and then it will be easier to append "more correct" values.

My 2cp.

 

[surfarcher]

Are you familiar enough with 5E's design to explain to others how to make a monster? I'd like to include design advice in the Monster Database (see the Databases menu in the top navbar).

What advice or mathematical calculations would you add? How is a skill, attack, or save calculated? How do you arrive at a CR? That sort of thing.

So --

1) What 5E design questions do you have? Monsters, spells, anything?

2) What are your answers to these?

Well I am already writing articles on this so... lol

 

[Morrus]

Well I am already writing articles on this so... lol

lol

 

[surfarcher]

lol

I'd be happy to front up for a Q&A or something... I could do an article or two as well.

Just keep in mind I have a fairly heavy commitment with the next 2-3 blog posts I have in the current series... and working full time IRL!

 

[Morrus]

I'd be happy to front up for a Q&A or something... I could do an article or two as well.

Just keep in mind I have a fairly heavy commitment with the next 2-3 blog posts I have in the current series... and working full time IRL!

I think what I'm hoping to arrive at is a reasonably briefish list of instructions/guidelines which could be actually incorporated next to the relevant fields on the fan monster creation database entry form. I don't know how possible that would be though.

 

[surfarcher]

I think what I'm hoping to arrive at is a reasonably briefish list of instructions/guidelines which could be actually incorporated next to the relevant fields on the fan monster creation database entry form. I don't know how possible that would be though.

Mmm... They'll need to be dynamic forms then, since the targets change with the target CR.

 

[doctorhook]

Came here to post, "Hey, there's this [MENTION=84774]surfarcher[/MENTION] guy I know who knows a hell of a lot about this," but fortunately he already found this thread!

It would be remiss to discuss this topic without the benefit of his work at this point.

PS: Keep it up, surf!

 

[surfarcher]

Thanks [MENTION=58401]doctorhook[/MENTION] !

 

[Thank Dog]

How do you quantify things like the Intellect Devourer, though? Technically it could kill a 20th-level character in two rounds and yet is only a CR 2. It doesn't do it through damage, it has low hit points and a few resistances, but otherwise just a few of them could TPK a group without the PCs ever even having a chance (other than the saves) to fight them (they can do it from hiding and teleport in, never revealing themselves).