5E musings

[Khisanth the Ancient]

For what system are we talking about here?

5E.

Certainly the basis of my own interpretation of the Abominations was that they were derived from certain Portfolios; which in many ways mimic the Cleric Domains.

Yes, I was just trying to re-align them according to the 5E domains.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

I wouldn't object at all amigo. Though I would assume none of it would use any of my past work; especially if you were planning on selling it for profit...?

Nah... it needs to be built 'from scratch' anyway since Ascension is built on top of the ELH and there's no prospect of anything like that for 5E.

And I doubt I would sell it, though it depends on how the 5E licensing situation evolves.

[I might want to convert a few of the Epic Bestiary monsters like the Odium though. Would that be OK? I believe those are open content, but if you'd prefer I not do so, I wouldn't, of course.]

 

[Upper_Krust]

Nah... it needs to be built 'from scratch' anyway since Ascension is built on top of the ELH and there's no prospect of anything like that for 5E.

And I doubt I would sell it, though it depends on how the 5E licensing situation evolves.

[I might want to convert a few of the Epic Bestiary monsters like the Odium though. Would that be OK? I believe those are open content, but if you'd prefer I not do so, I wouldn't, of course.]

As long as its not for sale feel free to convert as you wish Khisanth amigo.

 

[Beefermatic]

I played a bit of 5th edition, my initial thought is that if someone wanted to spend the time they could easily convert the preexisting IH idea into 5th edition format, 5th Edition, really is just DnD's version of pathfinder, they basically went back to 3.5 threw out the superfluous stuff and made a new streamlined version of it that was easy to play and easier to calculate. Personally I was a fan, not all of it, but enough to give it a spin, though truly I have so many 3.5 and Pathfinder books it's not likely I'd do it as anything more than a novelty. The fact remains however, that if someone was so inclined I don't think it'd be difficult to pull off.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Beefy mate!

I played a bit of 5th edition, my initial thought is that if someone wanted to spend the time they could easily convert the preexisting IH idea into 5th edition format, 5th Edition, really is just DnD's version of pathfinder, they basically went back to 3.5 threw out the superfluous stuff and made a new streamlined version of it that was easy to play and easier to calculate. Personally I was a fan, not all of it, but enough to give it a spin, though truly I have so many 3.5 and Pathfinder books it's not likely I'd do it as anything more than a novelty. The fact remains however, that if someone was so inclined I don't think it'd be difficult to pull off.

I wouldn't disagree. I got to play a lot of D&D in August - played almost all editions at least once if not more.

What I noticed was how simplistic 5E is compared to (high-level) 4E and also 3E/Pathfinder.

I wonder if the IH would seem too dense (in terms of additional powers) to add to 5E in its current guise or whether the added density would be a good thing.

 

[Beefermatic]

Howdy Beefy mate!



I wouldn't disagree. I got to play a lot of D&D in August - played almost all editions at least once if not more.

What I noticed was how simplistic 5E is compared to (high-level) 4E and also 3E/Pathfinder.

I wonder if the IH would seem too dense (in terms of additional powers) to add to 5E in its current guise or whether the added density would be a good thing.

The added density is what makes IH fun, any system can be simple and small, but IH caters to the psychos that want to play with the stars, one of my favorite things is how you can truly start getting a glimpse of what that should mean, the current DnD space and godly realms are so weak and lame in comparison, the gods have little substance, if one becomes a deity thats basically the end of the line and the beings they have designated as 'invincible mighty protectors of the whole world' really are quite weak in comparison to any threat that isn't a basic dragon or evil human, like a few tanks and helicopters would kill a Solar, that's given their status, IH is the only system that reflects a greater respect and a higher order of thought with DnD

 

[Upper_Krust]

The added density is what makes IH fun, any system can be simple and small, but IH caters to the psychos that want to play with the stars, one of my favorite things is how you can truly start getting a glimpse of what that should mean, the current DnD space and godly realms are so weak and lame in comparison, the gods have little substance, if one becomes a deity thats basically the end of the line and the beings they have designated as 'invincible mighty protectors of the whole world' really are quite weak in comparison to any threat that isn't a basic dragon or evil human, like a few tanks and helicopters would kill a Solar, that's given their status, IH is the only system that reflects a greater respect and a higher order of thought with DnD

Thanks amigo,

Although I think that the IH rules are not exactly 'streamlined' for sane people (as you note its psychos only) and the 'designer' side of me is annoyed at that.

I recently played a few sessions of Level 29 4th Edition (we killed Orcus*) and in the first session we had a stand-in player doing his first ever 4E game (though he had played a good bit of 5E and OD&D). I saw there and then that high-level 4E was just as baffling as previous epic rules - which made me think again about my 4E revised rules and how those would have saved that edition and allowed Immortal Tier 4E.

*no, not my Orcus.

So it was interesting to see that my Challenging Challenge ratings document was designed to facilitate my 3E Immortal Rules and the Revised 4E Class Rules would have allowed the same for that Edition.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

If one were to do Epic/Divine in 5E I think sticking to the somewhat more streamlined 5E ideas is best.

That doesn't mean a lack of options or powers - just that things should be fairly easy to understand and not require tons of math.

On the broader design side the big question is whether to use a fairly limited degree of advancement beyond 20th (as in 4E's Epic Tier or Pathfinder's Mythic rules) or allow for unlimited advancement as per 3E. If I were doing it (and I still may... if I ever finish that Dark Sun conversion project that's been sitting ignored for months ) I would start with say 10 levels worth and then see where to go from there, rather than the 3E ELH of repeating levels infinitely...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Khisanth amigo!

If one were to do Epic/Divine in 5E I think sticking to the somewhat more streamlined 5E ideas is best.

That doesn't mean a lack of options or powers - just that things should be fairly easy to understand and not require tons of math.

Generally you want to simplify as much as possible.

I'm probably not the best to ask about 5E specifically. I mean I have played it but I haven't studied it in-depth beyond determining I wasn't overly interested in buying all the same material for the 5th time.

On the broader design side the big question is whether to use a fairly limited degree of advancement beyond 20th (as in 4E's Epic Tier or Pathfinder's Mythic rules) or allow for unlimited advancement as per 3E. If I were doing it (and I still may... if I ever finish that Dark Sun conversion project that's been sitting ignored for months ) I would start with say 10 levels worth and then see where to go from there, rather than the 3E ELH of repeating levels infinitely...

Well the main problem is the math of 3E (coupled with near limitless feats, spells and other options).

Looking back I think 1st Edition had the right idea with regards a flat cap of THAC0, AC, saves, ability scores, items etc. Its a bit like World of Warcraft (which I don't play) having a Level Cap.

The player 'in you' will always be against any cap. But as a designer it makes so much sense. In 4E I would have made more out of the tier differences and thus you could have had a Heroic (soft) 'cap', Paragon, Epic, Immortal etc.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Well the main problem is the math of 3E (coupled with near limitless feats, spells and other options).

Definitely that's a broader, underlying issue... but what I was talking about was the more specific problem of if you're going to allow for potentially unlimited levels in limited page space, it gets spread kind of thin with 'bonus feat every X levels', class features getting relegated to Epic Feats (Improved Spell Capacity and all the Improved [Class Feature] feats, Rage feats, (whatever) Strike feats etc.

Also, you need some benchmarks set by which to scale everything else. That doesn't necessarily rule out unlimited progression in itself, but 3E ELH didn't really do that (though Ascension/Epic Bestiary did for beings with Divine Templates or equivalents like Akalich).

I'm thinking going to level 30 for epic mortals/hero- or quasi-deities/etc. (Equivalent of 3E Epic or 4E Epic Destinies) is about right. "Canonically" Demogorgon is CR 26 and Tiamat is CR 30 (outside their home planes anyway). If Tiamat is a Lesser Deity/Power that puts a Greater one pretty much in the range of a difficult/epic fight for a lvl 30 party.

EDIT: Beyond level 30 would then be in the range of full on divinity (or equivalent status like a 4E primordial).