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5E (5e + PF2e)/2?

dave2008

Adventurer
I hear a lot of complaints on the PF forums that 5e does have enough options and is not tactical enough. However, for me PF2e is not just adding some depth and options, but a lot more fiddle bits and complexity. To much for my taste. So I have a few questions for forum foragers:

  1. Is there a RPG that has the simplicity of 5e with some more depth and tactical options like PF2e (or 4e really)?
  2. Can you add depth and tactics to 5e without losing much of its simplicity / streamlined play?
  3. Assumed “yes” to #2: how would you do it?
To start here are my thoughts on an answer to #3 (which means I think #2 is a yes):
  • I would give tactical options to monsters (I’m already doing that)
  • add tactically oriented subclasses
  • Maybe rework feats to be half or mini feats and spread them across more levels
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
1. I don’t think there is currently such a game, at least not one that would satisfy what I’d want out if it.
2. Yes, I think it is very possible.
3. If I had the time and resources, I’d make my own game. In the mean time, I’m settling for 5e with some homebrew to bring in the options I crave.
 

GreyLord

Adventurer
I'm workin on it (well, working on something)....

At a very slow pace....

I started on an OGL 4e, but after a short spurt...got tied up in other things. The plan is to eventually migrate it to the 5e OGL and publish that on DMs guild.

But I am one person, and I get distracted easily....

(well, that would just be one option, there probably are others...mine will probably be a long time coming).
 

Saelorn

Adventurer
Gamma World 7E is an example of something that I would consider to be simple tactical play. It's tactical, because it uses the D&D 4E combat engine. It's simple, because there are no build choices - there are no feats, the powers you gain are determined entirely by your (randomly generated) race/class combination, and equipment is mostly cosmetic.
 

dave2008

Adventurer
Gamma World 7E is an example of something that I would consider to be simple tactical play. It's tactical, because it uses the D&D 4E combat engine. It's simple, because there are no build choices - there are no feats, the powers you gain are determined entirely by your (randomly generated) race/class combination, and equipment is mostly cosmetic.
Interesting, but I would be looking for more build options
 

Matrix Sorcica

Explorer
I thinking about importing the whole of PF2's economy, equipment (with all the weapon and armor traits) and magic items and only keep some of 5E's where needed (such as plae giving AC 18 and not +6 AC or whatever it is in PF2). I really like the way (magic weapons) work with criticals. I'm just a tiny it unsure about the impact, but PF2 spells and 5E spells seem to deal close enough damage that I don't think martials will get too much of a boost (as if such a thing is possible).

I also like PF2 monster resistances (cold iron, good, silvered etc.) a lot more than 5E's resistance to non magic weapons that are irrelevant by 5th lvl a lot more, so that goes in as well.

I will be following this thread with great interest!
 
please, tell me you found an easy and elegant hack to add the the 3 actions round in 5e!
What I'm shooting for is more like flattening the math of PF2 to be closer to 5E, and designing a combat system that is tactical at the core, so you can have interesting back-and-forth action even at 1st level.

And honestly it's more of a whole new game, rather than a hack to implement new rules into an existing one.
 
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Krachek

Explorer
I hear a lot of complaints on the PF forums that 5e does have enough options and is not tactical enough. However, for me PF2e is not just adding some depth and options, but a lot more fiddle bits and complexity. To much for my taste. So I have a few questions for forum foragers:

  1. Is there a RPG that has the simplicity of 5e with some more depth and tactical options like PF2e (or 4e really)?
  2. Can you add depth and tactics to 5e without losing much of its simplicity / streamlined play?
  3. Assumed “yes” to #2: how would you do it?
To start here are my thoughts on an answer to #3 (which means I think #2 is a yes):
  • I would give tactical options to monsters (I’m already doing that)
  • add tactically oriented subclasses
  • Maybe rework feats to be half or mini feats and spread them across more levels
Can you give us some case of tactical options you use?
 

dave2008

Adventurer
please, tell me you found an easy and elegant hack to add the the 3 actions round in 5e!
Personally I'm not set on that yet. I am not convinced it is an improvement. I fear it is going to lead to less dynamic battles. I would be more interested in omitting OA (like PF2e) and making them class (fighter) or feat specific.

However, I more intrigued by the 6 action system someone posted on a PF forum thread. 1 action for each second. So every action in PF2e is basically 2 actions in the 6 action system, then you have space for 1 action options. Personally I would tie reactions into this system (which is a flaw of the PF2e system IMO). That opens a lot of possibilities - maybe PF3e (or D&D 6e).
 

dave2008

Adventurer
I thinking about importing the whole of PF2's economy, equipment (with all the weapon and armor traits) and magic items and only keep some of 5E's where needed (such as plae giving AC 18 and not +6 AC or whatever it is in PF2). I really like the way (magic weapons) work with criticals. I'm just a tiny it unsure about the impact, but PF2 spells and 5E spells seem to deal close enough damage that I don't think martials will get too much of a boost (as if such a thing is possible).

I also like PF2 monster resistances (cold iron, good, silvered etc.) a lot more than 5E's resistance to non magic weapons that are irrelevant by 5th lvl a lot more, so that goes in as well.

I will be following this thread with great interest!
Personally I think there are two many options, but I understand what you are saying. I go back and forth whether the 5e resistance (half damage) or 3e/4e/PF version (reduction by X amount) is better. I can the pros and cons of each and keep going back and forth.
 

Matrix Sorcica

Explorer
Personally I think there are two many options, but I understand what you are saying. I go back and forth whether the 5e resistance (half damage) or 3e/4e/PF version (reduction by X amount) is better. I can the pros and cons of each and keep going back and forth.
5E damage resistance is irrelevant by lvl 5. I'd like for variation in 5E resistances. A 'simple' solution looks like using a combination like you suggest yourself.
 

Matrix Sorcica

Explorer
I've taken a hiatus from the project to work on other things and I have decided to ditch the idea of elites so I want to go back and change all of the "elite" stat blocks and just raise there CR.
Wut? Wasn't the whole point not that monsters would need to be ridiculousy over-CRed to be a threat?
 
@dave2008 I use creative Reactions, creative Inspiration (and spell upcasting), liberally interpreted forced movement, and a bit more attention to damage type (bludgeoning/piercing/slashing) in my 5e game. I find this adds a nice level of tactical depth without making the game more complicated. I'm sure this is because I handle a lot of these elements ad hoc.

Some players miss all the fiddly character creation bits of Pathfinder. I don't share that sentiment, but to address the two players who like the fiddly stuff, I've introduced some homebrew racial feats for their goblin and lizardfolk PCs, respectively, as well as homebrew magic items, and some story/narrative stuff that has scratched that itch for them.
 

dave2008

Adventurer
One second actions.
Besides, how can this not make combats take hours?
Well in theory it shouldn't take any longer. If 3 sword attacks cost 3 actions in PF2e, the would cost 6 actions in this version. For most things it doesn't change the thing. I like the idea that a reaction might cost 1 action, but of course you to have that 1 action available. So maybe the fighter attacks (2 actions), raises her shield (2 actions) and then moves 5 feet (1 action). That leaves 1 action for a possible reaction. I imagine it would take more time at first, but I don't think it adds to much time or complexity in the vast majority of situations.
 

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