D&D 5E (2014) 5e Spawn of Kyuss

[Shroomy]

I've been toying with ideas on how to convert spawn/son of kyuss's after reading this thread and I have some thoughts. Here are some of my ideas:

1. For a CR5 creature, 4HD is way, way too low. Glancing at the MM, most CR5 monsters have between 8-12 HD (some like the night hag have much more!). Luckily, the troll - perhaps the most iconic regenerative creature in the game - is also CR5. It has 8HD; based on that, I'd peg the spawn at 8HD. BTW, based on the 2e sources I was looking at, I'd also duplicate the troll's ability to reawaken if reduced to 0 hit points.

2. Ditch Turn Resistance. That's an artifact of the HD based 3e turn system (which in turn was trying to replicate 1e & 2e rules that had the spawn being turned as a mummy). Most creatures with turn resistance or turn immunity have story reasons for having it - while the Spawn of Kyuss is a potent undead creature, it is one of Kyuss's weakest creations.

3. Likewise, I'd get rid of zombie fortitude. The spawn of kyuss has enough staying power on its own.

4. Curative Transformation. Turning the spawn into a zombie is a needless complication (plus, it's really ambiguous regarding how it works even in 3e). Instead, I'd have them lose their regeneration, horrifying visage, and ability to create spawn (maybe the disease too). That way, they essentially become a tough zombie without any additional work for yourself.

5. Like other posters have suggested, I'd model the Kyuss's Gift disease on the mummy's ability.

6. I haven't worked it out yet, but I think the create spawn ability needs some work. I think the intellect devourer is probably a good model, but I need to think about it some more.

 

[Tormyr]

Wow. A lot of great feedback today.

I'd change this. Very few things in 5e deal ability damage/drain anymore. I think only the Shadow does now. (I don't remember anything else in the MM doing it.) Change this so it reduces maximum hp each day, like the mummy's curse or whatever, and maybe give disadvantage on Wisdom checks/saves.

Edit: In 2e, IIRC, the Sons' melee attack and the mummy's melee attack both caused pretty much the same disease: rotting, reduces Charisma, negates healing (or slows it), fatal in 1d6 months. I'd just copy/paste the text from the 5e Mummy.

Let me just say that this has been one of my favorite undead since the first time I saw that creepy, over-inked picture in the 1e Fiend Folio. Now then:

Wow, that's... quite a lot of text.

First, I'd find a way to trim it significantly. Second, I'd find a way to rework the ability damage to something more appropriate to 5e.

Zombie fortitude is redundant with regeneration in my eyes, and a spawn/son of Kyuss is not just another type of zombie, IMHO. I'd drop zombie fortitude.

I agree with both of you. There is all of one monster that does ability damage of this kind in 5e. I went through the entire MM tonight and found several diseases that do maximum hit point loss and settled on the mummy's version. Part of me is thinking about throwing in disadvantage on Wisdom checks and saves as well.

I've been toying with ideas on how to convert spawn/son of kyuss's after reading this thread and I have some thoughts. Here are some of my ideas:

1. For a CR5 creature, 4HD is way, way too low. Glancing at the MM, most CR5 monsters have between 8-12 HD (some like the night hag have much more!). Luckily, the troll - perhaps the most iconic regenerative creature in the game - is also CR5. It has 8HD; based on that, I'd peg the spawn at 8HD. BTW, based on the 2e sources I was looking at, I'd also duplicate the troll's ability to reawaken if reduced to 0 hit points.

I think you were looking at the 3.5 MM2 version. Mine has always had 11d8. I am concerned that lowering it down too much more will make it fall before it gets a shot off (not the worst thing in the world considering these are always in packs in the AP).

2. Ditch Turn Resistance. That's an artifact of the HD based 3e turn system (which in turn was trying to replicate 1e & 2e rules that had the spawn being turned as a mummy). Most creatures with turn resistance or turn immunity have story reasons for having it - while the Spawn of Kyuss is a potent undead creature, it is one of Kyuss's weakest creations.

I disagree on this one. I feel the worms give it the driving force to resist Turn Undead. Since there are several creatures in 5e that have it, I believe it is appropriate.

3. Likewise, I'd get rid of zombie fortitude. The spawn of kyuss has enough staying power on its own.

I am starting to agree on this one. Enough people have been saying this, and the 3.5 version states several times that it is different from a regular zombie.

4. Curative Transformation. Turning the spawn into a zombie is a needless complication (plus, it's really ambiguous regarding how it works even in 3e). Instead, I'd have them lose their regeneration, horrifying visage, and ability to create spawn (maybe the disease too). That way, they essentially become a tough zombie without any additional work for yourself.

Good idea. I will have it strip everything that makes it unique when remove disease is used on it.

5. Like other posters have suggested, I'd model the Kyuss's Gift disease on the mummy's ability.

Done.

6. I haven't worked it out yet, but I think the create spawn ability needs some work. I think the intellect devourer is probably a good model, but I need to think about it some more.

Check the Red Slaad's Claw attack and tell me what you think. In the end I might blend that with what I have right now.

 

[Grazzt]

Hit Points 49 (11d8)

Slam. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) bludgeoning damage. If the target is a creature, a Kyuss worm is transferred to the creature, and it must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw or be infected with the supernatural disease Kyuss’ Gift. The diseased creature has disadvantage on Wisdom checks and saving throws, can't regain hit points, and its hit point maximum decreases by 10 (3d6) for every 24 hours that elapse. If the curse reduces the target's hit point maximum to 0, the target dies. The disease lasts until removed by a remove disease or remove curse effect.

I'd increase both of these. The mummy, CR 3, has 58 hit points. An average CR 5 monster (I dumped ALL of the MM, and every other monster/NPC we've seen into a spreadsheet) has 94 hp.

Average damage for a CR 5 monster is 27 per round (though probably less when it has rider effects on its attack). The mummy does 20 damage with its rotting fist attack (10 bludgeon + 10 necrotic) and has a rider effect (the rotting effect) on it.

 

[Tormyr]

I'd increase both of these. The mummy, CR 3, has 58 hit points. An average CR 5 monster (I dumped ALL of the MM, and every other monster/NPC we've seen into a spreadsheet) has 94 hp.

Average damage for a CR 5 monster is 27 per round (though probably less when it has rider effects on its attack). The mummy does 20 damage with its rotting fist attack (10 bludgeon + 10 necrotic) and has a rider effect (the rotting effect) on it.

Again, thanks a lot for the input. I appreciate you taking the time out to comment.

After going through all of the CR 5 creatures, I found that most of them have 11 (followed closely by 12) hit dice. Of those, Most have around 4 damage dice if all their attacks connect.

Looking at each of the CR5 undead, I noticed that they all had at least a +3 Constitution modifier. I had kept all of the ability scores from the 3.5 version, but I have now bumped this to 16. So the spawn now gets another 33 hp. I think that may be enough with the regeneration.

Most medium creatures seem to have only 1 die on a slam attack (or melee weapon attack). Upon looking at all of the CR5 undead, I noticed they all have two dice per attack for some reason. So I changed the 1d6 for the slam to 2d4, raising the average by 2. I suppose I could go with 2d6, but between the extra damage and 2 opportunities for Kyuss Worms to infect hosts and the extra hp and 2 opportunities for Kyuss Gift, I think it might be enough.

 

[Henrix]

Is actually CR 5 right for the spawn in 5e?

I know that's what they are in 3e, but that is the same as a mummy.
Mummies are CR 3 in 5e.


[Edit]
In AD&D2 a mummy is worth 3 000 XP, a Son of Kyuss merely 1 400.

 

[Tormyr]

Is actually CR 5 right for the spawn in 5e?

I know that's what they are in 3e, but that is the same as a mummy.
Mummies are CR 3 in 5e.

[Edit]
In AD&D2 a mummy is worth 3 000 XP, a Son of Kyuss merely 1 400.

That is actually a good question. There is supposed to be 1 in a tower basement when the party is at level 6. If they were CR3, I could always throw 1 more in to the fight. However, I think that moving these guys to CR3 would require stripping most of the special stuff (turn resistance, disease, and maybe regeneration or something else.

I think I would prefer to keep this at CR5 and just use 1 fewer. I think that it would keep the creature more relavent through level 20 as well (since this AP goes through level 20. I also have a 7 person party, so higher CR creatures keeps things more manageable.

What does everyone think? Keep it CR5 or strip some stuff out and make it CR3. I would prefer to keep them CR5, but I am interested in what others think.

EDIT: I thought that there were 3 called for in the AP, but I was wrong. It was only 1.

 

[Henrix]

For me, I was never really fond of the 3e version - a little too much going on.
Essentially it is just a tougher zombie with worms.

 

[Tormyr]

For me, I was never really fond of the 3e version - a little too much going on.
Essentially it is just a tougher zombie with worms.

Darn it. I think you are right about CR3. I looked forward through the rest of the chapters in detail and did not find the Spawn of Kyuss except in chapter 3, chapter 5 and chapter 12. In chapter 12 the party is supposed to let town militia handle them. This leaves chapters 3 and 5. In chapter 5, the numbers requested for a 4 person party make this ridiculously deadly if using a half dozen CR5 creatures. So from an encounter building perspective over the time they will be used, CR3 seems to make more sense. For the first encounter, I can just throw in one more (the spawn got one of the soldiers before the rest pulled back) and go with that. For my 7 person party, they will get 3. This does leave a question as to what to remove to bring it down to CR3. I am thinking that dropping the Constitution modifier to +2, removing the disease, dropping the hit dice to maybe 9, and maybe dropping turn resistance.

Looking ahead in the AP, so many of the creatures seem to have the same ability to inflict worms of some sort (resulting in different levels of Kyuss spawn), turn resistance and a few other things that it might make sense to make a Wormtouched template that can be added to other creatures from the MM (such as the chimera).

Thoughts, anyone?

 

[Fion]

Agree with all suggestions that would simplify the stat block. Transferring a Worm shouldn't be automatic and con saves to resist the worms effects would quicken play, though I do like the DC 20 Medicine check to find and remove the worm. IMHO Medicine as a skill doesn't get used nearly often enough since almost anyone who has it also has the Spare the Dying cantrip.

I've been wanting to run Age of Worms for decades now and have never had the chance. I have plans for my game up to around level 10 at the moment so maybe I'll run the second half the Age of Worms for after that. So thank you OP for your Spawn of Kyuss, I was sad to see it isn't in the MM. It's one of those classic scary as f*#% monsters that has been in D&D since 1e.

 

[Tormyr]

Agree with all suggestions that would simplify the stat block. Transferring a Worm shouldn't be automatic and con saves to resist the worms effects would quicken play, though I do like the DC 20 Medicine check to find and remove the worm. IMHO Medicine as a skill doesn't get used nearly often enough since almost anyone who has it also has the Spare the Dying cantrip.

I've been wanting to run Age of Worms for decades now and have never had the chance. I have plans for my game up to around level 10 at the moment so maybe I'll run the second half the Age of Worms for after that. So thank you OP for your Spawn of Kyuss, I was sad to see it isn't in the MM. It's one of those classic scary as f*#% monsters that has been in D&D since 1e.

Thanks for your input. Transferring a worm is not automatic. The character has to be hit, and the character has a round to deal with it before it becomes a problem. The character further has plenty of time to deal with the worm before they are dead. I am not sure how to place a constitution check in there without it turning into a Save or Suck situation, or how it would quicken play. Besides, the worm is in you. How is your body going to shrug it off inside of a minute?

Tonight I am going to look at what should probably be stripped to fit inside a CR3 creature. Once the DMG is out this will hopefully be a simpler process. It is already a lot less guesswork now that the MM is out.