D&D 5E 5e Updates: Monstrous Compendium

Hey Dave2008. What do you use currently to calculate CR for these creatures? (Asking because if I am going to rebuild Rajara using your rules I will need to know what the baseline numbers are for her).

Do you have any recommendations for what her CR should be as a draconic quasipower?

Also I assume that she will no longer be mythic under your system, correct?
 

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dave2008

Legend
So will your 30+ monsters remain CR 30+? I'd hate to see gods get nerfed. Will you keep the CR system from your 5e epic monster updates?
Whatever the changes, they gods are not getting nerfed. As I indicated in my comparison of Epic Bane (CR 39) and Mythic Annam (CR 39), the mythic version is overall a much tougher encounter.

Now, when I port something I often review it. So, individual gods or monsters might get nerfed (or buffed), but no whole sale changes. Right now I am planning on using the CR in the epic updates, but the CR is calculated with the revised chart on the OP under EPIC TRAITS. This chart is just an extrapolation of the chart in the DMG. Therefore, the numbers are a little lower than the ones in the epic updates. However, the mythic trait more than compensates for the difference.


Also I noticed a potential problem with the Mythic template: the DPR stays the same when the trait is used, but the HP is doubled, at least. Will you increase the DPR or something along those lines to compensate? Or do the Mythic actions balance the issue?
That is not how the mythic concept works. The DPR doesn't change because it is conceptually to versions of the same monster. Not one monster with 2x the HP. The monster before and after the mythic trait is active needs to have its CR balanced independently. That is the beauty of the system for keeping BA in check while providing a much more challenging encounter.
 
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dave2008

Legend
Hey Dave2008. What do you use currently to calculate CR for these creatures? (Asking because if I am going to rebuild Rajara using your rules I will need to know what the baseline numbers are for her).

Do you have any recommendations for what her CR should be as a draconic quasipower?
I use the DMG guidelines. I then extrapolated out to CR 50. If you DM me your email address I can send to the excel spreadsheet that I use. To be honest, I don't overthink it to much. I generally get the CR based around the HP and AC for defense CR and attack bonus and DPR of attack CR. I then adjust for big ticket items like magic resistance and immunity. I don't worry to much about resistance and immunities because, unless you go overboard, as at epic levels resistances should be expected.

Regarding Rajara I can tell you what I am planning for Dragons in general by age category:

Adult: updated Legendary
Elder: same CR as adult (maybe +1 or 2), but Mythic
Ancient: updated Legendary
Great Wyrm: same CR as ancient (maybe +1 or 2), but Mythic

For demigod or quasi-deity I am probably just using a standard legendary monster in the CR 15-30 range (they very a lot in power IMO). However, with your mythic version it seems to me you are going for something in the lesser god power range. Or perhaps stat Rajara as a great wyrm? That is sort of between a quasi-deity and lesser god in power.
 
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FYI, in Epic Characters at lvl 29 a fighter gets 6 attacks per round standard and has 3 action surges for 42 attacks in 4 rounds (vs the 32 I assumed).
If you don't mind me saying, that is unspired design imo. Doesn't feel very epic if all is just bigger numbers. Plus, six attacks sounds like a slog! (Fighter: "I action surge!" Other Players: "We'll watch The Irishman")
 

dave2008

Legend
If you don't mind me saying, that is unspired design imo. Doesn't feel very epic if all is just bigger numbers. Plus, six attacks sounds like a slog! (Fighter: "I action surge!" Other Players: "We'll watch The Irishman")
Well, that is not all you get, but I tend to agree. Personally I think 4 is to many. I allow my PCs to cause double damage instead of extra attack (and double again with action surge).
 

dave2008

Legend
I have added the uber primordial, the end and the beginning, the bane of the celestial host, Ahat-Hir. Ahat-Hir is the most extreme example in terms of mythic stages and primordial rules. This is an exercise in pushing the system as far as it can go (perhaps to far). It is a work and progress and will help me figure out the boundaries of these revised mythic/epic monsters.

FYI, Ahat-Hir is not supposed to be challenged by PCs, it is designed to take on an army of gods. It is essentially nine stage 5 mythic monsters in one and it provides the equivalent of 54 CR 50 monsters in XP.
 

dave2008

Legend
TRUE DRAGONS
Dragons are an ancient, winged reptilian race. They are known and feared for their size, physical prowess, and magical abilities. The oldest dragons are among the most powerful creatures in the world.

True dragons are most often, but not always, identified by the color of their scales. There are many known subspecies of dragons, but the true dragons fall into three broad categories: chromatic, gem, and metallic dragons.
  • Chromatic dragons. The chromatic dragons are generally evil, greedy, and predatory, and they’re inclined to follow the evil aspect of the Great Dragon, whom they regard as their progenitor and patroness. However, some chromatics develop a more pragmatic if not entirely neutral or good outlook. This family includes red, blue, green, black, and white dragons.
  • Gem Dragons. The gem dragons are generally inquisitive and charismatic, following the neutral aspect of the Great Dragon which the venerate as the master of persuasion and riddles. However, more than a few gem dragons have been decided to be more than bystanders and have followed the path of their chromatic or metallic cousins. This family includes amethyst, crystal, emerald, sapphire, and topaz dragons.
  • Metallic dragons. In some ways the metallic dragons are the opposites of the chromatic dragons. Many of them are devoted to the good aspect of the Great Dragon and share his ideals of nobility and virtue. However, some fail to live up to those lofty goals and succumb to a selfishness and aggression that seems common among all of dragonkind. This family includes brass, bronze, copper, gold, and silver dragons.
Though they have a common origin, the present subspecies generally keep to themselves, working together only under extreme circumstances, such as a powerful mutual threat like the Dragon-Giant War of ages past. Good dragons never normally work with evil dragons; however, a few neutral dragon specimens have been known to associate with evil or good dragons.

When evil dragons of different species encounter each other, they usually fight to protect their territories. While good and neutral dragons of different subspecies are more tolerant of each other, they are also very territorial. They usually try to work out differences in a peaceful manner.

All subspecies of true dragons have 8 age categories, from Wyrmling to Wyrms. Additionally, dragons never truly stop growing and very old Wyrms can become so ancient that they are called Great Wyrms.

Generally, when multiple dragons are encountered they are a mated pair and young. Mated dragons are always Young Adults or older, but rarely Wyrm or Great Wyrm dragons. Young dragons found with their parents are of the Young Adult or younger. To determine the age of young dragons roll 1d8: 1) egg; 2-3) Wyrmling; 4-5; Young; 6-7; Juvenile; 8) Young Adult.

A pair of mated dragons older than the Elder stage generally do not stay together long, independence and the lust for treasure driving them apart. Older dragons of either sex sometimes raise young, but only on their own - the other parent leaves when the eggs are laid.

Dragons, especially older ones, are generally solitary due to necessity and preference. They distance themselves from civilization, which they generally consider to be a petty and foolish humanoid invention.

Dragons are fearsome predators, but scavenge when necessary and can eat almost anything if they are hungry enough. A dragon's metabolism operates like a highly efficient furnace, making use of 95% of all the food the dragon eats. A dragon can also metabolize inorganic material, and some dragons have developed a taste for such fare.

DRAGON AGE CATEGORIES
CategorySizeSpells KnownAge Range
WyrmlingVaries05 years or less
YoungSmall06-25 years
JuvenileMedium026-50 years
Young AdultLarge451-100 years
AdultHuge5101-400 years
ElderGargantuan6401-800 years
AncientGargantuan*7801-1,200 years
WyrmGargantuan*81,200-2,000 years
Great WyrmGargantuan*92001 years or more
* Some Ancient and older dragons occupy more space than the typical Gargantuan creature. They have the Colossal trait which defines their size and space in their stat block.

Dragon Fear. Adult and older dragons radiate and aura of menace and danger know as dragon fear. The dragon can intensify this aura at will, forcing creatures of its choice to make a saving throw or be frightened. This ability is represented by the the dragon's Frightful Presence action in their stat block.

Additionally, unless a dragon wishes, any creature* with only 1 hit die that can see, hear, or smell a dragon is frightened, no save. A creature frightened in this way must use all of its speed to move away from the dragon as quickly as possible until it can no longer hear, see, or smell the dragon.

*A trained mount or beast, familiar, or similar creature in the presence of its trainer or companion can make a DC 10 Wisdom saving throw to avoid this affect. They can make the saving throw with advantage if their companion or trainer is within 10 feet of them. On success save the creature is not frightened and is immune to this effect for 6 hours.

Dragon Hide. Dragon hide (skin and scales) is famous for its durability and innate elemental resistance. It is therefor highly prized by armorers with the skill to turn it into shields and armor. However, it is difficult to work and much of the hide is wasted. Therefore, only Large dragons (Young Adult and older) can be used to make armor or shields of any value. Refer to the Dragon Armor by Age table for the type of Armor, its AC, and the time and cost to create it. A armorer can create two shields for the same cost and time indicated for one piece of armor.

In addition to the benefits in the table, armor made from dragon hide provides resistance to the damage type of the parent dragon's breath weapon. Dragon hide shields also provide a similar resistance, but only when a reaction is used to provide the resistance to the triggering damage type. A creature must have shield proficiency to gain this benefit.

DRAGON ARMOR BY AGE
AgeNumber & Armor TypeArmor ClassBonus to Shield ACCost / Time per Armor
Young Adult1 MediumAC 13 + Dex modifier (max 2)+0500 gp / 30 days
Adult2 MediumAC 14 + Dex modifier (max 2)+01,000 gp / 60 days
Elder3 MediumAC 15 + Dex modifier (max 2)+12,000 gp / 60 days
Ancient5 MediumAC 16 + Dex modifier (max 2)+25,000 gp / 90 days
Wyrm8 MediumAC 17 + Dex modifier (max 2)+320,000 gp / 120 days
Great Wyrm10 MediumAC 18 + Dex modifier (max 2)+330,000 gp / 150 days

Dragon Hoards. Although dragons' goals and ideals vary among subspecies, all dragons are covetous. They like to hoard wealth, collecting mounds of coins and gathering as many gems, jewels, and magical items as possible. They find treasure pleasing to look at, and they bask in the radiance of the magical items. For a dragon, there is never enough treasure. Those with large hoards are loath to leave them for long, venturing out of their lairs only to patrol the immediate areas or to get food. Dragons like to make beds of their treasure, shaping nooks and mounds to fit their bodies.

Because of their great age, power, and covetous nature, dragons often have more treasure than the typical monster. Sometimes much more. When randomly determining a dragons treasure hoard, you can roll for additional treasure as follows:
  • Adult Dragon: roll once on the Challenge 17+ Treasure Hoard table (DMG pg 139)
  • Elder Dragon: roll once on the Challenge 17+ Treasure Hoard table and once on the Challenge 11-16 table (DMG pg 138)
  • Ancient Dragon: roll twice on the Challenge 17+ Treasure Hoard table
  • Wyrm Dragon: roll twice on the Challenge 17+ Treasure Hoard table and once on the Challenge 11-16 table
  • Great Wyrm Dragon: roll three times on the Challenge 17+ Treasure Hoard table
Dragon Lairs. All dragon lairs are far from humanoid civilization, and they are difficult to find because the dragons take careful measures to cloak their coming and going. There is usually little, if any, wildlife around the lairs because neighboring creatures fear the dragons, and most dragons eat the few creatures that are foolish enough to remain.

When a Young Adult dragon leaves its parents in search of its own lair, it spends a few years moving from place to place to find a cave or cavern which best suits its personality. In most cases, the dragons search for increasingly larger caves which can easily accommodate them as they grow. Usually by the time a dragon has reached the Adult stage, it has selected a large lair it plans to keep for the remainder of its life. A dragon at this stage has gathered a considerable amount of treasure and is loath to move it to a different location.

The location and character of dragon lairs vary based on each subspecies:
However, one thing remains constant: any dragon considers its lair and neighboring areas its domains. A creature which violates or threatens the lair is threatening the dragon and will be dealt with harshly. Some good dragons may be more lenient than other subspecies in this matter. All dragons keep their treasure hidden deep within their lairs, and some dragons create hazardous conditions within their lain to keep unwary creatures from reaching the treasure.

Dragon Magic. Dragons are innately magic creatures. It is part of the very fabric of their being; imbuing them with great strength, allowing them to fly, and powering their breath weapons. lair actions, other magic. Additionally, Young Adult and older dragons can cast spells that relate to their innate nature: red dragons can cast fire spells, white dragons cold spells, etc. The dragon can use this magic to cast spells a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier. When it does so, it can cast any spell from its list of spells at a spell level equal to the dragon's CR divided by 3. A dragon typically knows a number of spells equal to its age category as noted in the Dragon Age Category table.

Additionally, on rare occasions some dragons develop the ability to become true spell casters. Favoring sorcerers and wizards, but any casting class is possible. This not a common practice for dragons as their innate magical nature is often more powerful than magic gained through other methods.

Dragon Senses. All dragons have excellent senses of sight, smell, and hearing. Their enhanced senses enable them to detect invisible objects and creatures (blindsight) and even predict the movements of their opponents (Detect Legendary Action). Furthermore,

A dragon's senses are even more acute within its own lair and with regard to its treasure hoard. While in its lair, a dragon can use a Lair Action to spread its senses and hear conversations anywhere within its lair. This ability is similar to the spell clairvoyance (hearing only), but requires no components and it does not create a sensor.

Dragon Tactics. As dragons age they master new ways of using their bodies and abilities in combat. An explanation of these options is provide in True Dragons: Alternate Actions.

DRAGON-KIN
Beyond the True Dragons, there a several subspecies of dragon that are very close and similar to True Dragons, though typically not as mighty as True Dragons and they don't have the 8 age categories of True Dragons.
  • Catastrophic Dragons. Mighty embodiments of primordial forces, catastrophic dragons are destructive, but not devoted to evil. The ground warps and explodes violently in their presence. Blizzard, earthquake, tornado, typhoon, and volcano dragons are known types of catastrophic dragons.
  • Planar Dragons. Sometimes dragons become infused with qualities of the other planes of existence. Overtime these dragons created their own lineages. Shadow, abyssal, and fey dragons are examples of such dragons.
  • Scourge Dragons. Linnorms, as scourge dragons are sometimes called, lack wings and rear legs but maintain the malicious intelligence of their chromatic brethren. They are almost universally evil and they revel in the raw physicality of melee combat and have come to embody the afflictions that plague living creatures, much as catastrophic dragons embody natural disasters.
 
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