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D&D 5E 5e Updates: Mythic, Epic, and Hardcore Monsters

dave2008

Legend
A note on the Wyrm's mythic actions.

1) Imolate foe is normally 1 LA, but once you go mythic its 3. Is that intended?

2) You make spell-casting part of the mythic LAs, but since you made a specific note that the spells are flavor and not really a party of the Dragon's core CR, it seems strange to add them in as LA actions.
No, that was a left over from when immolate foe did damage too. I will remove it for now. I may still add damage back to immolate foe at some point.

Well, when the spells are not available as legendary actions they would generally be a waste compared to a normal attack routine (CR wise). That is why they don't figure - using them doesn't change the CR. However, since the mythic action is less than the full HP, I have more room to deal damage and magic is now an option for a legendary action. But to be honest I haven't looked at these mythic actions since we made all of these changes and I need to review them too.

I could remove the note if that feels better.
 
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Matrix Sorcica

Adventurer
I have updated the Elder, Ancient, and Wyrm red dragons. I am still going to look at few tweaks suggested by the feedback, but I picked up some of them and had to modify some things to make the CR work (had a saving throw error in the first pass)
When you tweak them: Wyrm still has recharge 5-6 (just if it's not intentional).
You could roll Keen Senses and Perceptive into one trait. Gives one less trait to keep track of.

I think the concept for Dragon Scales and be transferred to the Tarrasque and other high CR critters that might have problems with flying opponents.
 





No I wasn't suggesting that really. Just wondering if you thought about it and rejected it.
Here is the Focus! I think of it as a mix of Abberation and undead, seeing as it is the source of Atropus' intellect. Note: I only did 1 mythic action, but there should be more. I accidentally deleted some spells for Innate spellcasting so you can fill them in. I think of it as a very powerful spellcaster, as that's the majority of what it will do in combat. I struggled to think of third and fourth standard actions. In my head I thought of it as a bony alien that looked like an Enderman.
Perhaps you could write this in the description: "If the Focus dies, Atropus' Intelligence and Wisdom scores decrease by 1d12 and he suffers 329 (30d20) psychic damage."
 

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Stalker0

Legend
So I gave it a day to reset after so many changes and then just did a fresh read of the Red Dragons.

Dragon Scales: So I think the current idea works very well, just throwing out one more alternative idea.
A dragon has 3/4 cover against all ranged attacks (aka +5 to AC).

--The idea here is to allow players that have cover negating abilities to shine against the dragon, or using advantage mechanics to combat the AC boost. In other words, it allows players to overcome the dragon scale ability in other ways than "get close". Flavorwise, this may also better model the notion of "finding weak spots amidst invulnerable scales".

Young: Solid

Juvenile: Solid

Young Adult: I do think this is the weakest red dragon in the series. Its at the CR where you need serious crowd control/magic defenses to start carrying your weight as a legendary creature but doesn't have the toys yet. Might I suggest giving the tail the stun effect of the adult dragon. This gives it a bit of crowd control and makes sense in flavor, as this "tail slam" is now a legendary action and not just a basic one.

Adult: Solid

Elder: Hellish Rebuke snuck back in to the statblock. Also I'm getting a CR 23 for this one (Defensive CR 22, Offensive CR is 22 for damage, but +2 for an additional +4 attack for a CR 24).

Ancient: Solid. I do think the inclusion of the volcanic gases legendary action will likely create a large difference in how an Elder and Ancient fight. Because the volcanic gases has such a good chance of knocking people out of the round, I image you will see 3 uses of this as opposed to detect + tail slam for the elder. This might get a little frustrating for players, having to make 3 poison saves a round or be out of the fight for a round. That said, at these CRs I expect those kinds of shenanigan's and for players to plan against it.

Wyrm: The indefinite madness seems a nice mechanic way to handle the fear boost, I like it.
 

dave2008

Legend
So I gave it a day to reset after so many changes and then just did a fresh read of the Red Dragons.

Dragon Scales: So I think the current idea works very well, just throwing out one more alternative idea.
A dragon has 3/4 cover against all ranged attacks (aka +5 to AC).

--The idea here is to allow players that have cover negating abilities to shine against the dragon, or using advantage mechanics to combat the AC boost. In other words, it allows players to overcome the dragon scale ability in other ways than "get close". Flavorwise, this may also better model the notion of "finding weak spots amidst invulnerable scales".

Young: Solid

Juvenile: Solid

Young Adult: I do think this is the weakest red dragon in the series. Its at the CR where you need serious crowd control/magic defenses to start carrying your weight as a legendary creature but doesn't have the toys yet. Might I suggest giving the tail the stun effect of the adult dragon. This gives it a bit of crowd control and makes sense in flavor, as this "tail slam" is now a legendary action and not just a basic one.

Adult: Solid

Elder: Hellish Rebuke snuck back in to the statblock. Also I'm getting a CR 23 for this one (Defensive CR 22, Offensive CR is 22 for damage, but +2 for an additional +4 attack for a CR 24).

Ancient: Solid. I do think the inclusion of the volcanic gases legendary action will likely create a large difference in how an Elder and Ancient fight. Because the volcanic gases has such a good chance of knocking people out of the round, I image you will see 3 uses of this as opposed to detect + tail slam for the elder. This might get a little frustrating for players, having to make 3 poison saves a round or be out of the fight for a round. That said, at these CRs I expect those kinds of shenanigan's and for players to plan against it.

Wyrm: The indefinite madness seems a nice mechanic way to handle the fear boost, I like it.
Thanks for the comments. I corrected hellish rebuke.

The intent with the lair actions was to have them not repeat, as that is how the work in the lair. However, I never clarified that. I will have to think about the simplest way to handle that.

I might give the Young Adult a lesser version of stunned (I wish 5e had the Dazed condition), maybe incapacitated?

I like how your thinking about dragon scales, but 3/4 cover just seems odd. I will think about it.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Thanks for the comments. I corrected hellish rebuke.

The intent with the lair actions was to have them not repeat, as that is how the work in the lair. However, I never clarified that. I will have to think about the simplest way to handle that.

I might give the Young Adult a lesser version of stunned (I wish 5e had the Dazed condition), maybe incapacitated?

I like how your thinking about dragon scales, but 3/4 cover just seems odd. I will think about it.

I think incapacitated is fine (and technically is very close to the 3e daze condition). The main goal is to remove pressure from the dragon, not add more pressure to the party, and incapacitated is good for that.

So the notion of "cover" is the notion that dragon scales are so hard, they are effectively more like building material than living flesh. So they effectively provide protection to the actual creature within. You can attack the scales all day (just like you can attack a building), and its not going to really help you. But that said, I still like the current version... so either one I think does the job, its there is some appeal to having a conditions that certain players can overcome with feats and abilities, but its not necessary.
 

dave2008

Legend
I think incapacitated is fine (and technically is very close to the 3e daze condition). The main goal is to remove pressure from the dragon, not add more pressure to the party, and incapacitated is good for that.

So the notion of "cover" is the notion that dragon scales are so hard, they are effectively more like building material than living flesh. So they effectively provide protection to the actual creature within. You can attack the scales all day (just like you can attack a building), and its not going to really help you. But that said, I still like the current version... so either one I think does the job, its there is some appeal to having a conditions that certain players can overcome with feats and abilities, but its not necessary.
I like what it is doing and implying mechanically - I just don't like the name :unsure: I also think ranged fighting is OP and 5e so I am loath to give them any more goodies:mad: But I will think about it. Mechanically it is pretty elegant.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Took a very brief look at the Adult Green Dragon just to get the theme.

1) I like the subtle shift of saving throws to cover int, its a small touch but an important one.
2) Beguiling Presence looks good. I'm debating myself whether it should just be charm to truly differentiate from the red dragon...but I guess there is nothing wrong with the green dragon having a more flexible aura.
3) For the breath, you could go for poisoned instead of incapacitated.... though that is a weaker condition its more flavorful. Another option to provide difference might be, that whether you pass the save or not, if you take damage you are poisoned. So its a weaker effect that is more guaranteed to land (unless you have evasion or something like that). While I do think its important to leave the magic strips for balance purposes....we can probably play with the secondary effects a bit more.

If you do want to include more "mind elements", you could go for a lingering mental impact, similar to how Synaptic Static works from Xanathars".

"On a failed save your mind becomes befuddled for 1 minute. During that time, it rolls a d6 and subtracts the number rolled from all its attack rolls and ability checks, as well as its Constitution saving throws to maintain concentration."
 

dave2008

Legend
3) For the breath, you could go for poisoned instead of incapacitated.... though that is a weaker condition its more flavorful. Another option to provide difference might be, that whether you pass the save or not, if you take damage you are poisoned. So its a weaker effect that is more guaranteed to land (unless you have evasion or something like that). While I do think its important to leave the magic strips for balance purposes....we can probably play with the secondary effects a bit more.
I think that is a good idea. I add the poisoned condition in an older dragon, but replacing the incapacitated with auto poisoned is probably a good idea.
 

dave2008

Legend
I have completed drafts of the green dragon cycle. I have not included spells for dragon magic yet, and any help on that front would be much appreciated (please not the spell level limit in the description). Also, any comments and suggestions are welcome.
Suggestions for the next Chromatic? Personally I am thinking Blue.

EDIT: I added some spells, feel free to recommend others. FYI, these should be more for flavor or tactics.
 
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Matrix Sorcica

Adventurer
(I wish 5e had the Dazed condition), maybe incapacitated?
Why not just desribe the effect as text?
"..and the target can only take either an action, a move or a bonus action (if possible), The target also can't take reactions, but can still take free acctions."
Something like that, just a bit more polished.
 

dave2008

Legend
Why not just desribe the effect as text?
"..and the target can only take either an action, a move or a bonus action (if possible), The target also can't take reactions, but can still take free acctions."
Something like that, just a bit more polished.
Incapacitated is close enough: you can't take actions or reactions. I want to avoid extra text were I can, these get pretty big
 

Matrix Sorcica

Adventurer
If you do want to include more "mind elements", you could go for a lingering mental impact, similar to how Synaptic Static works from Xanathars".

"On a failed save your mind becomes befuddled for 1 minute. During that time, it rolls a d6 and subtracts the number rolled from all its attack rolls and ability checks, as well as its Constitution saving throws to maintain concentration."
I would like that spell better ifyou rolled for the effect each round. As written, it can be a minor nuisance to totally crippling.
 

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