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D&D 5E 5e Updates: Mythic, Epic, and Hardcore Monsters


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imeannoharm

Dorkus
I have the Tome of Horros book from Frog God Games and Lucifer is not in it, so I am not sure what version of Lucifer your talking about.

However, if and when I do decided to do Lucifer Morningstar / Samael / Satan I would most likely do my own version. I would definitely review whatever resources already exist, but LM is one of my favorite characters and I couldn't just updated someone else's version.
TOH2020 seemed to censor Lucifer's name to the Lightbringer. Not sure why, Christian censorship hasn't happened in a while. Guess that's their "1st edition feel!" . Anyway they nerfed Lucy down to 400 hp & CR 28. But that's not how you make him more powerful! A mass of HP like they did with him in PF & 3.5 just makes him boring so the best take would be to give him wayyy more DPR, a problem most 4e monsters suffer from too. He literally did like 18 in frog God's TOH/C stats. He was balanced in 2020 but now he's too weak. I'll look through my collection and the net & see if I can find other stats.
 

dave2008

Legend
TOH2020 seemed to censor Lucifer's name to the Lightbringer. Not sure why, Christian censorship hasn't happened in a while. Guess that's their "1st edition feel!" . Anyway they nerfed Lucy down to 400 hp & CR 28. But that's not how you make him more powerful! A mass of HP like they did with him in PF & 3.5 just makes him boring so the best take would be to give him wayyy more DPR, a problem most 4e monsters suffer from too. He literally did like 18 in frog God's TOH/C stats. He was balanced in 2020 but now he's too weak. I'll look through my collection and the net & see if I can find other stats.
When I get to Lucy I will take a look, but mine will be much more powerful than what you describe.
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
I was thinking of being a little more evil with the mythic rules, and have Demogorgon split in 2 (each with 1 head). It seems like the action economy of having 2 weaker legendary monster with legendary/mythic actions could make for a really bad day for a party of 4 PC's.

I just updated a product I have on DMSGUILD with 7 mythic monsters. One of them is a troll that splits in two when it goes to zero the first time. That resists acid........I won't post the link here, not trying to spam all the threads here...but its under Eberron...
 

dave2008

Legend
I just updated a product I have on DMSGUILD with 7 mythic monsters. One of them is a troll that splits in two when it goes to zero the first time. That resists acid........I won't post the link here, not trying to spam all the threads here...but its under Eberron...
Sounds pretty cool. I like how the mythic concept opens up a bunch of interesting design space,
 

dave2008

Legend
I have added Annam, the giant god pantheon head. It is till a WIP, but I wanted to go ahead and post it. This was originally designed by @pitofdespairx_x and I edited and updated to my new staged mythic idea.

The concept is that each rank of deity gets an additional stage of mythic traits. So a lesser god is a mythic monster. an intermediate god is stage 2 mythic monster (the mythic trait activates twice) and a greater god like Annam is a stage 3 mythic monster (mythic trait activates 3x). Let me know what you think
 
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dave2008

Legend
Empyrean
Huge celestial (titan), 75% any good, 25% any evil alignment
1599163724564.png

Armor Class 24 (natural armor)
Hit Points 495 (30d12 + 300)
Speed 60 ft., fly 60 ft., swim 60 ft.
1599163725838.png

STRDEXCONINTWISCHA
30 (+10)22 (+6)30 (+10)22 (+6)23 (+6)28 (+9)
1599163726907.png

Savings Throws Str +19, Dex +15, Con +19, Int + 15, Wis +15, Cha +18
Skills Athletics +19, Insight +15, Investigation +15, Perception +15 Persuasion +18
Damage Resistances fire; uncommon or lesser magic items, see also Divine Resistance
Damage Immunities radiant; bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing that is nonmagical
Condition Immunities exhaustion, poisoned
Senses truesight 240 ft., passive Perception 25
Languages All, telepathy 240 ft.
Challenge 27 (105,000 XP)
1599163729610.png

Divine Resistance.
The empyrean has resistance to one of the following types of damage: acid, cold, force, lightning, or thunder. The empyrean can change this resistance as a bonus action or a reaction.

Innate Spellcasting. The empyrean’s spell casting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 25, +17 to hit with attack spells). The empyrean can innately cast the following spells, requiring no material components:

At will: bless, greater restoration, pass without trace, water breathing, water walk
3/day each: chain lightning (6th level), commune, destructive wave (radiant damage), dispel evil and good, hallow
1/day each: control weather, divine word, earthquake, fire storm, plane shift (self only), shapechange

Magic Resistance. The empyrean has advantage on saving throws against spells and magical effects.

Magic Weapons. The empyrean’s weapon attacks are considered uncommon magic.

Siege Monster. The empyrean double damage to structures and objects.

Unstoppable. A empyrean can use a reaction at the end of its turn to remove one condition or effect it is suffering. Alternately, it can use a reaction, take 30 hit points of damage, and end the condition or effect immediately.

ACTIONS
Multiattack. The empyrean makes two attacks

Maul. Melee Weapon Attack: +18 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: 52 (12d6 + 10) bludgeoning damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 27 Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of the empyrean’s next turn, knocked prone, or pushed 15 feet, the empyrean’s choice.

Bolt. Ranged Spell Attack: +17 to hit, range 600 ft., one target. Hit: 49 (14d6) fire or radiant damage (empyrean’s choice) or the damage type that matches the empyrean’s divine resistance.

LEGENDARY ACTIONS
The empyrean can take 2 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature’s turn. If the empyrean has unspent legendary actions at the end of the round, it may spend and immediately use its remaining legendary actions. The empyrean regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn.

Attack. The empyrean makes a maul or or bolt attack.
Bolster. The empyrean bolsters all non-hostile creatures within 240 feet of it until the end of its next turn. Bolstered creatures can’t be charmed or frightened, and they gain advantage on ability checks and saving throws until the end of the empyrean’s next turn.
Regenerate. The empyrean regenerates 20 hit points.
Shift. The empyrean moves up to half its speed and does not provoke opportunity attacks with this movement.
Spell (Costs 2 Actions). The empyrean casts a spell.
Teleport (Costs 2 Actions). The empyrean magically teleports, along with any equipment it is wearing or carrying, up to 240 feet to an unoccupied space it can see.
Trembling Strike (Costs 2 Actions/recharge 5-6). The empyrean strikes the ground, triggering a massive shock wave and earth tremor. All creature on the ground within 60 feet of the empyrean must succeed on a DC 26 Strength saving throw, taking74 (16d8) thunder damage and be knocked prone on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
 
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Hey Dave2008. Are you planning on making traits for demigods? It seems strange to not have any traits for them when you have traits for other types of divinities.

I am considering doing some big updates to Rajara using your rules as a baseline, but as she is only a demipower (at most) it is a little hard to do without proper rules.
 

As a side note, I would be very very careful with the limited magic immunity trait for your deities, there is a very good reason as to why Rajara only has it up to 3rd level (and I have been considering removing it altogether). It is an extremely problematic trait that essentially locks anyone who has casting ability but is not a full caster out of most of their abilities, and even full casters usually only can get one or two spells that affect the creature before they half to resort to using a crossbow.

I understand that wizards of the coasts themselves has used it on some high-end monsters (aka Tiamat), but having actually played extremely high level 5e has given me an understanding of how problematic it can be. Nothing is worse than simply saying "no", and both limited magic immunity and legendary resistance as written do exactly this (incidentally this is why I have changed legendary resistance on her to simply grant advantage on all saving throws, it is a much easier rule that does not rely on a weirdly specific number of uses per day and still gives a defense increase without simply saying "no" to the players).

As written your deities already have high enough saving throws to succeed on anything the players can throw at them on a 2. Having limited magic immunity on top of that feels like overkill.
 

dave2008

Legend
Hey Dave2008. Are you planning on making traits for demigods? It seems strange to not have any traits for them when you have traits for other types of divinities.
I wasn't planning on it because I considered things of demigod level to be so varied to be without a clear definition. However, I could create a baseline, and then you only need to modify the parts that are different for a particular demigod. Give me about 30 min. and I will post it.

I am considering doing some big updates to Rajara using your rules as a baseline, but as she is only a demipower (at most) it is a little hard to do without proper rules.
Sounds good, just give me a shout if I need to update my link.
 

Matrix Sorcica

Adventurer
I have added Annam, the giant god pantheon head. It is till a WIP, but I wanted to go ahead and post it. This was originally designed by ??? and I edited and updated to my new staged mythic idea.

The concept is that each rank of deity gets an additional stage of mythic traits. So a lesser god is a mythic monster. an intermediate god is stage 2 mythic monster (the mythic trait activates twice) and a greater god like Annam is a stage 3 mythic monster (mythic trait activates 3x). Let me know what you think
So you decided not to cap the gods at CR30? Now with mythic Amman is more powerful than most of your previous god designs. Are you planning to increase the power level from the already very very high level it already was? I'm not sure I agree that's what the point of mythic traits are about. Imo is about being able to actually face these things.

In the greater god traits, their attacks are +5 weapons. What's the point/relevance of that? Shouldn't it be 'artifact-level' or 'legendary-level' like the damage immunity/resistance?

Also, when Amman uses his maul, is it "only" a +3 weapon then?
 

dave2008

Legend
As a side note, I would be very very careful with the limited magic immunity trait for your deities, there is a very good reason as to why Rajara only has it up to 3rd level (and I have been considering removing it altogether). It is an extremely problematic trait that essentially locks anyone who has casting ability but is not a full caster out of most of their abilities, and even full casters usually only can get one or two spells that affect the creature before they half to resort to using a crossbow.

I understand that wizards of the coasts themselves has used it on some high-end monsters (aka Tiamat), but having actually played extremely high level 5e has given me an understanding of how problematic it can be. Nothing is worse than simply saying "no", and both limited magic immunity and legendary resistance as written do exactly this (incidentally this is why I have changed legendary resistance on her to simply grant advantage on all saving throws, it is a much easier rule that does not rely on a weirdly specific number of uses per day and still gives a defense increase without simply saying "no" to the players).

As written your deities already have high enough saving throws to succeed on anything the players can throw at them on a 2. Having limited magic immunity on top of that feels like overkill.
I agree with you to some extent, and I may revise the levels down (originally they were all one level lower). However, anything I post above lesser god level (and to some extent lesser god level monsters) are not intended for general play. They are yo be used with above level 20 play: either epic boons and/or a 3PP that takes PCs above level 20. So, casters at these levels will have access to more high level spells and above 9th level spells.

I am also considering replacing Legendary resistance. Right now I only give it to deities, everything else gets a different mechanic to deal with conditions and effects (see the "unstoppable" trait some of the monsters have. These are "working" documents, so I will make changes over time.

EDIT: I have replaced legendary resistance with unstoppable and reduce the effectiveness of limited magic immunity to start at 5th lvl for lesser gods and max at 7th level for greater gods.
 
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dave2008

Legend
So you decided not to cap the gods at CR30? Now with mythic Amman is more powerful than most of your previous god designs. Are you planning to increase the power level from the already very very high level it already was? I'm not sure I agree that's what the point of mythic traits are about. Imo is about being able to actually face these things.
I'm trying it out to see how it works. I have gotten rid of epic bonuses and reduced the damage by ability score numbers, so things are less drastic than before. The AC, to hit, attack, and damage numbers should all be less than in the epic updates. The big difference is the big jump in HP allowed by the mythic stages. From my perspective this makes them more usable with existing 3PP lvl 20+ epic content. The are still able to be damaged and hit, but they can last much longer. So, if you have a party of 6 lvl 30 PCs i think you could actually have an interesting fight with a solo greater god, I don't think that would be possible, or at least not as interesting, with my old rules. We will see.

One reason I have chosen this format is that it is easy to edit and keep it up to date without having to mess with Word and PDFs.
In the greater god traits, their attacks are +5 weapons. What's the point/relevance of that? Shouldn't it be 'artifact-level' or 'legendary-level' like the damage immunity/resistance?
It says legendary magic items when I look at it. Maybe you say it in progress before I was finished?
Also, when Amman uses his maul, is it "only" a +3 weapon then?
It is listed as an artifact, the point of saying it is +3 is so you can understand the math behind the to hit number (which I forgot to calculate). Might need to rethink that as I don't like natural weapons getting the shaft.
 


dave2008

Legend
Hey Dave2008. Are you planning on making traits for demigods? It seems strange to not have any traits for them when you have traits for other types of divinities.

I am considering doing some big updates to Rajara using your rules as a baseline, but as she is only a demipower (at most) it is a little hard to do without proper rules.
I have added Demigod Traits. Let me know what you think. I am willing to adjust as needed.
 
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dave2008

Legend
Must be it.

Okay, we'll see how it pans out. I still feel it's way more powerful than your previous designs.
Overall yes (my twisted mind prefers that), but the revised numbers keep it closer to the base BA, which I like. If you look at Annam, his total HP are much higher, but his to hit bonus, AC, and DPR are lower than my old CR 39 greater gods:

Annam (CR 39)
AC: 25
Total HP: 4,230
To hit: +25
DPR: 400+/-

Bane (epic update CR 39)
AC: 30/34 (w/ shield)
Total HP: 1,440
to hit: +28
DPR: 700+/-

EDIT: now that I see it, Annam is basically an auto-hit a CR 39 monster. I may want to reduce his HP and increase his AC to compensate
 
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