D&D 5E 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

We don't have magic items like this to rely on. We're playing Core at the moment.

We tried to use cover and small caves. Our DM (myself included) play dragons as very patient creatures. They don't care if the players leave. They refuse to fight on their terms even if it means waiting hours, days, or longer. Dragons think, "I could wait for this little group to die of old age for all I care. They will fight where I want them to fight, not where they want me to fight." That's a play-style difference and assumption about creature thinking that others probably don't share.

I was mostly referring to the fact a poster above claimed its "simple" and "easy" to negate concentration, if they were running a Dragon they'd easily do it.

The last Dragon fight I ran the PC's used a small L shape cave as cover, while they buffed the Paladin to go out and do battle. The Abjurer came out as well - he doesn't lose concentration much due to Arcane Ward.
I couldn't really go into the cave because I could become Dragon mince meat very quickly, losing all the advantages of my mobility. I might have been able to try something like misty step in, grapple the Bard who was maintaining concentration on fly (although Bards + grappling = not guaranteed success for a Dragon), then got the hell out of dodge, but I would have taken a ton of damage doing it.

Regarding the Bigby's thing:
In play testing high CR Dragons we could just kill them with Sharpshooter + Bless so never worried about Bigby's Hand. We just used high level magic missiles against them to finish them off quicker. Like you said in other posts, you need to shut them down very quickly, you don't have rounds to sit around attempting to grapple or move with telekinesis.

In game though I use spell casting Dragons, so I'll counter-spell it or misty step out of a Bigbys, so my Wizard player doesn't bother using that spell to grapple. He's gotten great mileage out of it though in non-Dragon fights. He won an encounter using Bigby's by throwing a dozen Drow off a cliff face from far away, using his familiar as his eyes, while he stayed nice and safe behind full cover.
 

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Oops I meant hypnotic pattern. Not color spray. Name mixed up.

And yes they do work as I've used them. Why wouldn't the dragon ever get within 120' of the party? Tasha's is much shorter range but could be readied.

If its legendary it obviously is harder. Except not all of them appear to have legendary resistance.

They have a +1 or +2 wis save so the percent failure is very high. Seems a good bet.

We're talking about adult dragons. They all have legendary.

Younger don't. We didn't have any problems with younger dragons.

Demons are a mixed bag, Magic Resistances helps, if you attack their weak save you can get them. They aren't as tough as dragons save something like a Pit Fiend. Those tactics wouldn't work too well on a Pit Fiend. Saves with MR too good.

You have a time limit fighting dragons based on damage. Stuff has to work and work right away or the dragon will kill your party. There is rarely enough time to burn through LR.
 

I was mostly referring to the fact a poster above claimed its "simple" and "easy" to negate concentration, if they were running a Dragon they'd easily do it.

The last Dragon fight I ran the PC's used a small L shape cave as cover, while they buffed the Paladin to go out and do battle. The Abjurer came out as well - he doesn't lose concentration much due to Arcane Ward.
I couldn't really go into the cave because I could become Dragon mince meat very quickly, losing all the advantages of my mobility. I might have been able to try something like misty step in, grapple the Bard who was maintaining concentration on fly (although Bards + grappling = not guaranteed success for a Dragon), then got the hell out of dodge, but I would have taken a ton of damage doing it.

Regarding the Bigby's thing:
In play testing high CR Dragons we could just kill them with Sharpshooter + Bless so never worried about Bigby's Hand. We just used high level magic missiles against them to finish them off quicker. Like you said in other posts, you need to shut them down very quickly, you don't have rounds to sit around attempting to grapple or move with telekinesis.

In game though I use spell casting Dragons, so I'll counter-spell it or misty step out of a Bigbys, so my Wizard player doesn't bother using that spell to grapple. He's gotten great mileage out of it though in non-Dragon fights. He won an encounter using Bigby's by throwing a dozen Drow off a cliff face from far away, using his familiar as his eyes, while he stayed nice and safe behind full cover.

I'm glad someone else has experienced what I have. Dragon DPR is insanely high. I'm glad it is because dragons should be tough. It leaves no time to try other tactics. Fly and bless work, you use it or die a painful, quick death. It's almost impossible to main concentration when hit by a dragon breath unless you have some niche builds or bonuses to do so. We haven't fought an Ancient Dragon yet. Probably even worse.

Glad to hear Bigby's has been useful. It seems like a fun spell. Best version of Bigby's I can recall.
 

Celtavian said:
Wow. Our "moron" DM decided the 30 foot ceiling wasn't appropriate for a huge creature. So he made it vastly higher. It was more like 70 to 100 feet. So no jumping. I'm glad I'm now learning our "moron DM" changed things. I probably would have as well. Dragon fighting in a room with a 30 foot ceiling is another one those situations we don't like.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-broken-Bounded-Accuracy/page39#ixzz3cTWG4Bjq

So, IOW, your dragon was within javelin range 100% of the time. Considering you're talking about 15th level characters, the fighters have five, possibly six, ASI's. Burn two for stat bumps, 1 for GWF, is it really unreasonable for the wizard to ask him to take Sharpshooter, thus negating range penalties? At that point, he's pretty effective as a ranged combatant.

Considering Adult dragons have to get within 60 feet to hurt you, they are pretty much never not in javelin range. You're playing a dragon and flier heavy campaign. Why not take Sharpshooter? It makes sense for that campaign.

In a campaign that doesn't feature a lot of ranged combat, you don't need it, but, it sounds like this one was pretty heavy on ranged fighting. I would say it's up to the players to make their own characters valuable, rather than relying on someone else and hurting their fun (you did complain after all).

Sure, the fighter types aren't as effective at range. Fair enough. That's the point. You're not supposed to be equally effective all the time.

But, then, I'm not terribly convinced that melee heavy combatants are all that out of line anyway. To me, that's very campaign dependent. An Underdark campaign, or Undermountain, or World's Largest Dungeon campaign, or Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, or even most of the "classic" modules don't necessitate ranged combat. They never did.
 

But, then, I'm not terribly convinced that melee heavy combatants are all that out of line anyway. To me, that's very campaign dependent. An Underdark campaign, or Undermountain, or World's Largest Dungeon campaign, or Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, or even most of the "classic" modules don't necessitate ranged combat. They never did.

Just to add onto this a bit, I ran a seafaring campaign a couple of years ago. Heavy armor was typically a bad idea. Players built their characters accordingly in order to fit the genre and to remain viable combatants (and not drown) while in the water. It was up to each player to be able to swim from ship to ship or to be able to survive a fall into the ocean. And, at no point did anyone say that the system we were playing had problems because they built a character who was ill-suited to seafaring. Everyone knew what the game was about, and everyone played accordingly.

Right now I'm running an urban game, where the PCs rarely leave the city. This also changes the dynamic somewhat from the typical (if there is such a thing) D&D tropes. The players adapt to the campaign or they aren't successful. Of course, we communicate about expectations, and so they are successful.

It sounds like [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] is in a highly specific campaign, one where melee fighting is kind of like wearing heavy armor in a seafaring game. The end result sucks, but it is an artifact of the type of game being played. So, yes, his experiences are perfectly valid for the type of highly specialized game that he's playing. But, I also agree with Hussar here, in that the experiences of playing a dragon heavy game can't be extended to D&D in general, or at least not in a generalistic way. Most PCs will meet one, maybe two, adult dragons in their entire adventuring career. Many none.

Perhaps that's why all the backlash. It's seen as playing a plate-wearing fighter in a seafaring game and expecting to always have a spellcaster cast water walking on you. Maybe the problem isn't that water walking is this super important spell. Maybe the problem is that pirates shouldn't wear plate mail. Now, if everyone loves the concept of the plate-wearing pirate, that's one thing. But if the caster is tired of casting the spell, that's a wholly other issue, and not one associated with the game rules at all.

And, that's this conversation in a nutshell.
 


The environment dependency is an entirely valid and critical argument. I've been really itching on playing a knight archetype--mounted combat, inspiring leader, lance charges, etc. But I know the other DM almost always runs his campaigns in either urban or dungeon environments. It would be pretty silly for me to complain about how the game is broken or doesn't work or isn't balanced because there are a lot of scenarios where my specialty doesn't come into play and I knew what type of adventure I'm getting into beforehand. That's the thing about specializing. It sort of infers a correlation between how great your at something specific and how less effective you are with everything else. If I specialize in mounted combat, I expect to be the best at that. But I also expect to have shortcomings in other areas because of my choice to specialize. Historically, as a player preference, I have almost always gone with the jack of all trades rather than specialized in one particular area just because I like to have my bases covered. The inverse is also true, of course. By choosing to be effective in many areas, I fully accept that I won't be as good in an area compared to a PC who specialized in it.
 

So, IOW, your dragon was within javelin range 100% of the time. Considering you're talking about 15th level characters, the fighters have five, possibly six, ASI's. Burn two for stat bumps, 1 for GWF, is it really unreasonable for the wizard to ask him to take Sharpshooter, thus negating range penalties? At that point, he's pretty effective as a ranged combatant.

We were 16th at the end of the campaign. Adult dragons were trivial with fly at that time. At 16th level the fighter had enough hit points and could do ranged, but he was still far and away more effective in melee. Fly was still the best option. Bard was handling that due to a magic item. I was casting protection from energy. Tiamat has a lot of breath weapons.

We took on our first adult dragon at 8th level in that huge ice cave. 8th level, not 15th.

Considering Adult dragons have to get within 60 feet to hurt you, they are pretty much never not in javelin range. You're playing a dragon and flier heavy campaign. Why not take Sharpshooter? It makes sense for that campaign.

The players did not choose sharpshooter. Fighter took a couple of levels of barbarian for the DR because the dragons were hammering him. He had Heavy Armor Mastery, Great Weapon Mastery, and Tough with a couple of ability increases. He didn't feel like investing in Sharpshooter. He didn't like throwing javelins for 1d6+5 damage and changing circumstances due to opponent mobility.

On top of that, it was still far more effective to cast fly on him to let him tank the thing, while doing great melee damage with his magic dragon slaying sword by that level. He had a javelin of lightining he threw on occasion.

It doesn't beat melee. Best option was still fly.

This isn't about figuring out what works. It's about works best versus what would be more fun.

In a campaign that doesn't feature a lot of ranged combat, you don't need it, but, it sounds like this one was pretty heavy on ranged fighting. I would say it's up to the players to make their own characters valuable, rather than relying on someone else and hurting their fun (you did complain after all).

To us it's about winning as a group. Encounters are designed and played with the idea of challenging the efforts of a group of players working together. When we don't work together, we often die.

Just last week we almost wiped because of small mistakes by the players. That's all it takes in our encounters. You make one small mistake, a couple of party members go down, the party wipes.

Strangely enough it was this encounter where I found out the cleric is some kind of badass. Cast spiritual guardians, spiritual weapon, strap on the shield, and start hitting with sacred flame while healing yourself on occasion. Holy crap can you take out a bunch of regular melee monsters.

Sure, the fighter types aren't as effective at range. Fair enough. That's the point. You're not supposed to be equally effective all the time.

In a group game, the other players help overcome each other's weaknesses. A fighter is better at taking damage and face tanking than the mage, so he does that. The mage can cast fly on the fighter to get him into melee against fliers. The cleric can heal to keep people alive in tough fights. The striker does a lot of damage while the face tanker takes the damage. You cover the other guy.

It was never an issue until 5E. Concentration makes it so when I provide the fighter with a fly spell to shore up his mobility weakness, suddenly I've limited myself from both a power and fun standpoint. First edition of D&D to do that. It kind of sucks from the perspective a caster wanting to use some of his nifty higher level concentration spells.

It's not a balance problem. We still win the fights. The game isn't broken because of it. I just find the designer choice damages my fun when I'm using my magic to buff up the melee martial to do his job better.

But, then, I'm not terribly convinced that melee heavy combatants are all that out of line anyway. To me, that's very campaign dependent. An Underdark campaign, or Undermountain, or World's Largest Dungeon campaign, or Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, or even most of the "classic" modules don't necessitate ranged combat. They never did.

It is campaign dependent. There are more campaigns where ranged will have an advantage over melee than vice versa or where they are equal.

There are times when being good at melee helps. Sometimes the archer in our group has stuff in his face and he doesn't want the disadvantage from firing with stuff in his face. So he switches to a melee weapon and shield.

More often he has a great advantage being able to attack from range with no cover penalties. Even recently we fought at group hiding in a keep using arrow slits to attack us. +5 cover versus ranged attacks and no ability to attack as a melee. The enemy could not stay at the arrow slits because the Sharpshooter could shoot through them with no penalty. They moved back and forth behind cover. Archer had to use ready actions to hit them. That worked fine since he had positioned for great cover. The melee had to stay where they are and wait. Ranged characters rarely have to wait and almost never do melee get to run in while ranged have to wait. If melee can attack, ranged can usually hammer as well. But the same is not true the other way.

It's not an insurmountable obstacle. Damn did they make being a ranged character great in 5E. I thought they were tough in 3E with seven shots a round. Even 3E made sure to limit the ability to move, full attack, and move again for obvious reasons. 5E just said screw it. Let's give everyone the ability to move, shoot a full attack, and go behind full cover. It won't overshadow melee, no way. Well, it does in many situations.
 
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Basically, I learned the the best attack spell the wizard gets is to throw the fighter at the monster.

Yep. Been that way for a while in our campaigns.

In 3E we designed major encounters so that a mage could not end them easily with a single spell, so his best option was get the melee going and then test the waters as to what might work against the enemy. It was our way of eliminating the caster-martial disparity and assuring that high level martials stayed equally effective at what they had been effective at for most of their levels. I always understood that if we ran things in the standard fashion in 3E, casters would wreck everything alone. So we made sure that didn't happen too often, though you have to let it happen now and again or the casters feel like gimps. There was no concentration mechanic, so the opportunity cost of assisting the fighter with mobility was much lower. And he often had his own mobility magic item or consumables to handle the problem.

We don't want to create a situation where martials fall behind again. 5E did a pretty great job of balancing classes for the most part. I feel casters need a little more leeway with concentration than the base game provides. Not to win fights, but to have fun.
 

The environment dependency is an entirely valid and critical argument. I've been really itching on playing a knight archetype--mounted combat, inspiring leader, lance charges, etc. But I know the other DM almost always runs his campaigns in either urban or dungeon environments. It would be pretty silly for me to complain about how the game is broken or doesn't work or isn't balanced because there are a lot of scenarios where my specialty doesn't come into play and I knew what type of adventure I'm getting into beforehand. That's the thing about specializing. It sort of infers a correlation between how great your at something specific and how less effective you are with everything else. If I specialize in mounted combat, I expect to be the best at that. But I also expect to have shortcomings in other areas because of my choice to specialize. Historically, as a player preference, I have almost always gone with the jack of all trades rather than specialized in one particular area just because I like to have my bases covered. The inverse is also true, of course. By choosing to be effective in many areas, I fully accept that I won't be as good in an area compared to a PC who specialized in it.

Playing a melee fighter is not something that's highly specific. I'd say its pretty damn standard. I'd say its pretty abnormal not to have a melee Fighter, Barbarian, or Paladin.

Now flick through the monsters manual and take a look at all the creatures that are higher CRs, things you fight at higher level. Take note of how many things can fly or teleport.

Most people don't seem to grasp this issue because they've never played high level stuff. Even if you're NOT fighting fliers the "drop" in DPR from simply running into melee range to full attack is HUGE. We're not talking melee characters hitting for 1d8+3 anymore, we're talking big numbers.

In one combat against 20 skeletons, 2 vampires, 3 winter wolves, and 1 wraith the melee player wasted so much damage potential throwing handaxes (honestly, throwing hand axes is a terrible substitute for a full attack with GMW), or running into position. Then against the vampire he was pretty useless as well, since it could run on the roof and walls away from him.

Melee has a mobility problem in 5e and its not campaign specific, and becomes glaring obvious later in the game. Arguably not an issue for most people to experience, but it is an issue.

Instead of DMs here dismissing it and theorycraftinf "solutions", it's much more wise to heed these potential issues and take note, don't you think?
 

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