D&D 5E 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

[Celtavian]

Why would they have to ready actions? None of the dragon's attacks are more than about 100 feet in range. That's still in javelin range. And, why only one attack on the ready? You don't lose your multiple attacks on a ready action - you gain those multiple attacks any time you take an attack action.

How big do you think a javelin is that you can't carry a quiver of them? 20 javelins doesn't take up much more space than a quiver of arrows and a bow.

Why isn't your Paladin using his Oath (presuming he's a Vengeance Paladin (And, I don't have my books in front of me, so I might have the names wrong)) to reduce enemy speeds to zero?

IOW, ignoring the GWF feat, there's no significant damage difference between using javelins and using a melee weapon (barring magical enhancements).

1d6+5 damage is nothing to the much higher DPR of the dragon going after the weak armored individuals because your javelin damage is like an insect hitting it. The paladin with Oath makes it an even roll. That still misses quite roughly 50% of the time, further reducing your damage.

There is for a paladin. He can't smite with javelins.

 

[Celtavian]

My takeaway from all of this is, "Don't make one trick pony parties and characters". Make sure your character, certainly by high level, can do both ranged and melee. Since we're talking about 15th level characters here, it's pretty trivially easy to do both, even if you're better at one than another.

Agreed. We found that out the hard way. It was our first 5E game.

Here is the question: Do you like that Str-based melee are an inferior option to Dex-based switch hitters? Please do not construe this as "not viable." Merely a less optimal choice in 5E due to the way certain mechanics work.

You can play a Str-based melee martial. You'll have pretty severe limitations that a ranged attacker won't. For example, the same player that played the GWM Battlemaster in the dragon campaign is now playing a warlock/fighter. You can't escape this guy. He hammers you in melee range and if you try to attack him at range, he hammers you with eldritch blast.

We did exactly as you posted. We made every character a switch hitter. A martial that can't do substantial damage in both ranged and melee combat is a liability. That means making the big meaty str-based hammer is no longer worth doing in 5E. That eliminates a lot of very cool fictional archetypes.

 

[Celtavian]

I find it hard to believe that most people sitting around reading this forum would find it enjoyable for a player of a spell caster PC to cast his one and only concentration spell in the one and only fight of the day to buff a fellow PC when the spell caster has 15 or more spell slots, 20 or more prepped spells, and he's not only lavishing his sole concentration spell on such a thing, but possibly expending his first round casting it.

Personally, if your DM was actually using optimal tactics, he would be throwing four or five such "deadly optimal possible NPC tactics" extremely tough encounters at your group in a single day where the players think that each one is the mega encounter of the day, only to find out, nope, that's not it (but it did use up a bunch of your resources).

Our battles take a while. That would be very hard to do. Everyone is so invested in optimal tactics that talking about what to do from round to round can take a bit. Our fights are hard enough that the players actually stress a bit around the table. When they try an optimal tactic and it gets countered, stress levels increase. Thus tactical discussion time increases. I imagine only Dave Dash probably plays similar to this. But we've been playing so long that playing a different way doesn't get the adrenaline going unless its a difficult fight that requires a lot of thinking, which slows the game down. Multiple deadly encounters would slow it to watching a slug crawl.

 

[Celtavian]

I can give you two, though there are undoubtedly more (I only checked up to 5th level wizard spells).

Bigby's Grasping Hand and Telekinesis. Which are spells that you probably have access to by the time you're facing adult dragons.

Bigby's is is a decent default choice. It uses a +8 ability check which matches or beats that of the majority of dragons. As a bonus, you can do a bit of damage to the dragon. It's unclear whether the grapple would cause the dragon to fall outright or if the hand holds it in the air and has to drag it down (which might take a few rounds depending on how high it's flying). Since the dragon can try to escape every turn, this is arguably the lesser option unless the DM rules that the grapple causes the dragon to fall from the sky automatically. So it will vary campaign to campaign.

The hand would hold it where it is per the grapple rules. The range is 120 feet. You still have to get the melee to where the creature is. Hand is a concentration spell. Fly is a concentration spell. Do you attempt to use the hand possibly failing to grapple the creature or use the more fly guaranteeing the melee can get to the creature?

Hand is an excellent choice in a party with ranged power. Holds the dragon in place. Allows you to do damage. Ranged attackers tee off on it. Less reliable with melee. We went with fly.

I really wanted to try hand. The breath weapon hit so hard that missing a concentration check was almost guaranteed. Once I got hand at 9th level, I had 56 hit points. Dragon breath weapon does 54 points of damage. I could have used a 4th level slot to cast fire shield on myself to DR. I was holding back my 4th level slots for group flies.

I am going to try Bigby's sometime. I really wanted to try this spell. I hope I get to play a wizard in a group with ranged martials next time I play a wizard. I don't want my most sure tactical option to be fly.

Telekinesis is a great choice if you have a bit of backup. Someone in this thread mentioned that they had a cleric, bard and wizard in the party, and this is the perfect setup for Telekinesis. With the bard's inspiring word and the cleric's guidance, your Telekinesis has a good chance to beat even ancient dragons in an ability check (wizard's +5+1d10+1d4 = +13 vs dragon's +8). The really great thing about this spell is that it restrains the dragon until the end of your next turn (dragon has no chance to escape before then). So your allies have advantage on their attacks!

Note that since both of these spells utilize ability checks, legendary resistance cannot help the dragon in question. That's the key.

Another debated spell. Fly was more reliable. Telekinesis is a great spell.

You can't waste time with appropriate CR dragons. Damage is too high. You have to use reliable means to win. At least in standard sized parties without much magic. I had 56 hit points at 9th level. Cleric maybe had 60 to 65. Fighter I think had 90 because he took toughness. You can't be wasting any time. Breath weapon 54 average damage. He's going to hit someone. Followed by melee attacks with Legendary action. Full hit point dragon played intelligent will usually sweep in for one quick kill using its breath weapon and actions, then start to use its mobility to avoid damage.

Lair action, legendary action, and melee attacks you're usually looking at 70 to 100 DPR depending on how many times he hits. If you leave a soft target like a caster in visible range, he will kill that target and then leave. At least that is how we play. So it is important not to leave a soft target open to initial attack. With the low hit points, the dragon will kill a soft, low AC target. So you want to send in the armored martials to draw its agro first, then enter battle.

Makes some of the tactics a little tricky.

There are also other, non-magical options. For example, anyone with the Sentinel feat just needs to be strafed by the dragon to lock it into position for a melee beat down (or simply get adjacent to it before it gets airborne, perhaps with the help of a mage's dimension door spell).

Sentinel can be quite good for halting a strafing flier if they don't have reach. You can mitigate that if the Polearm Master is also a Sentinel guy. That is quite a hefty feat investment.

Against the Young varieties it becomes even easier, especially since they lack legendary resistance. A battlemaster with a bow can trip attack them out of the sky, or a caster could use the EE Earthbind spell.

Young dragons aren't a problem unless there are a lot of them.

 

[Celtavian]

My players have learnt to quite easily mitigate such DM tactics. Either by cunning use of full cover, utlizing small caves where Dragons don't do well, going Ethereal, or jumping into bags of holding/portable holes.

I love it how DM's are like "Well I'll just do this! Simple!". I don't know about your groups, but my players are smart and they have four brains to my one. The first such fight is usually hard, but if they survive they learn and adapt.

Also depending on your party makeup, breaking concentration isn't that easy. I hit the Bard in my group with a finger of death for 68 damage last night. Guaranteed to ruin concentration right? Nope.
First of all easily made his save (Resilient Con, Standing in Paladins aura). So that's now 34 damage, halved for his concentration check is a DC of 17. +7 con save plus paladin aura = +10, plus Bardic inspiration = easy save.
Oh, and he had Bless on. And if he really needed to make it, inspiration.

We don't have magic items like this to rely on. We're playing Core at the moment.

We tried to use cover and small caves. Our DM (myself included) play dragons as very patient creatures. They don't care if the players leave. They refuse to fight on their terms even if it means waiting hours, days, or longer. Dragons think, "I could wait for this little group to die of old age for all I care. They will fight where I want them to fight, not where they want me to fight." That's a play-style difference and assumption about creature thinking that others probably don't share.

 

[Celtavian]

Hemlock covered this, but, just to repeat, you do not only get one attack on a readied action. You get one ACTION on a readied action. If your read how fighters get their extra attacks, they get extra attacks whenever they take the attack action. They do not gain extra actions. So, I ready an attack action, and, if I'm a fighter or someone who gains extra attacks, then I get all my attacks on that readied action.

Note, a character with two weapon fighting, for example, would not gain attacks with the off hand weapon with a readied action.

But, if that's how you interpret readied actions, then it totally makes sense that you would think that thrown weapons are more or less pointless.

And, again, how big do you think these weapons are? Throwing axes aren't that big and can be worn on a bandolier. You can easily carry half a dozen and probably more within easy reach. And, if you're facing a dragon, why would you not have gotten them out of your bag of holding before the fight starts? Well, then again, if you limit PC's to a single attack on a readied action, then, I suppose that makes sense. Why bother.

Granted, true, the attacks will be at disadvantage, but, then again, I've been told over and over again how easy it is to gain advantage on attacks, and various buffs will negate that penalty. A 15th level fighter, even with disadvantage, given various buffs and whatnot, shouldn't be missing that often.

Hemlock covered this. No, you do not get all your attacks. Extra Attacks is a separate feature that only works on your turn. A ready action only allows once attack. This is with the usual "Do as you wish at your table" caveat.

 

[Celtavian]

Dude. DUDE. DUDE. Acting like only one module or series of modules represents 'true D&D' and that the experiences of others are so inapplicable to True D&D that they aren't even allowed to contribute to the thread- as if you got to decide that!- is just ridiculous. I notice that you're getting a lot of push back from a ton of posters, and at least a couple seem to find your posting style insulting. Until this post, I was kind of laughing it off- but dude. DUDE. DUDE! You are so out of line here. I'm sorry, but "I'm right, and you can't talk back" is not helping engender good discussion; it's making you come across as one of those "My way is right, and even if everyone else in the world disagrees, THEY ARE WRONG!!" kinds of guys. This is a discussion forum, not a "Celtavian gets to talk and you can post if you agree" forum.

Did you just snip a comment and completely misconstrue what was said? Why yes you did.

There is no "true" D&D. That is why I said "Core" D&D. As in the core books and the core assumptions of the game as in very few magic items if any, no dragon allies, point buy stats, average hit points, running a WotC designed module with encounters designed by game designers.

I'm not getting good discussion as it is. I'm getting the perspective of people running games far away from the standard core system with huge dragon allies and access to magical items that allow them to far exceed the capabilities of characters run using the core rules and assumptions. How does that perspective in any way address the situation I'm dealing with following the core rules and assumptions of the game? For example, an adult dragon breath weapon from a white dragon (one of the weaker dragons) can kill a 9th level character in one hit if they miss their save. It can devastate a party in one round. Now I'm being told a 6th level party with even lower hit points is beating adult dragons easily? The math in that situation does not in anyway work. They obviously have some means to counter or deal with dragon breath otherwise their 6th level party will die fast and easy 99% of the time. Which is why I stated what I did. A 6th level character does not have enough hit points to stand up to an adult dragon in its lair. One breath weapon hit practically kills them all. A breath weapon hit wit lair actions and legendary actions would decimate a 6th level party.

The only optional rule we used in the PHB was feats. I don't know what my DM modified in Tyranny of Dragons. I'm finding he changed the terrain of the white dragon lair we fought in or at least the final cave area. We handed out the magic items in the book with one modified sword given to the GWM warrior because it was an old beloved character he was playing with a sword that had a story behind it. Otherwise, we ran core rules. It does no good to hear from players whose DM is giving them powerful flying dragon allies and dragon lances at level 6.

 

[Celtavian]

Brainstorming on someone else's behalf is always a form of theorycrafting. When someone solicits ideas for overcoming a challenge with a given party, you've never played that party, and if you say "You should cast spell X" they can always come back and say, "We don't know X." What you expect from a reasonable person is that they will take the suggestions which work for them and ignore the others, but what Celtavian likes to do is zero in on the one suggestion which isn't feasible for him and complain about it. "What if you can't find any purple worms? FAIL, you obviously don't really play D&D"--I have 4th level PCs who've had the dubious pleasure of running away from purple worms and would therefore know where to find them. Celtavian doesn't apparently, but he uses that as an excuse to give up on the problem instead of finding a solution that works within his constraints, and then to smear the people brainstorming on his behalf, "That will never work. You obviously don't know how hard we have it!" Other times he raises spurious objections (like claiming that a white dragon's ice wall lair action is some kind of a showstopper for a necromancer's skeletons instead of a barely-noticeable speed bump) and takes the opportunity to sneer at people for "theorycrafting". Sorry, no. You've obviously never played with Inspired Leadership skeletons, Celtavian, nor read and understood the rules on white dragon lair actions, so your sneers are ironically misplaced.

There's no use trying to help someone who isn't listening. Don't Say Things That Can't Be Heard.

I wasn't soliciting assistance. That's what makes these responses so frustrating. I was stating experience utilizing the core rules in a game to level 16. It was our first 5E game. I also wasn't saying the game didn't work or anything of the kind. I was stating what we found to be true which I can sum up as follows:

1. Concentration creates narrow solutions to problems limiting casters from casting spells they might enjoy more than others.

What I was told:
A. You don't have to cast spells you don't want to cast. Your martial buddy should just grin and bare it if you cast Bigby's while he sits on the ground throwing javelins against a huge dragon. It's your own fault for feeling obligated to help your friend get into battle with a fly spell. He's selfish if he expects you to cast a fly spell on him. Do something else if it seems fun, even if your friend doesn't have any fun.

B. There are other ways to win. They don't have the same chance of working like a fly on the melee martials, but they might work. So give them a try even though I just explained a dragon has huge DPR and can kill the party in a few rounds if something doesn't work.

C. Our 6th level party with powerful dragon allies and dragonlances didn't have the same problem killing dragons. So things might not be the same for every campaign.

2. Ranged is more powerful than melee in 5E due to how mobility works.

What was I told:
A. Use str-based ranged weapons with far shorter ranges that don't allow the use of the GWM feat to boost damage like an archer can do with the Sharpshooter feat. That don't negate the benefits of cover like the Sharpshooter feat. That have one quarter the range of bows. That don't have the ammunition feature allowing easy drawing of the weapons for multiple attacks (though like most we'll house rule this away).

B. It's easy for a DM to design an encounter to defeat ranged archers and favor melee followed by tactics in a group game equally affect the melee and can be overcome quite quickly by casters getting the ranged back in action quickly while the martials still have to close the distance to attack due to mobility issues.

C. You think ranged is overpowered when I said more powerful than melee making the game a great deal easier with a group of ranged attackers.

It's all been very frustrating to discuss the effects of 5E rule changes and how they affect combat, character optimization, dragon fights, caster spell strategy choices, and the like and getting responses from folks assuming you're insinuating 5E is a bad game, things are overpowered for the entire game, and a general bunch of assumptions that I never entertained or stated. Frustrating to say the least. Then each post someone new hops on, snips a piece, and makes some new assumption taking the conversation in yet another direction.

Par for the course for internet forums I guess. Hard to have a cogent discussion on 5E while this is happening.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

Yep.

I don't tailor campaigns to players. Ever.

Their fate is COMPLETELY in their own hands, and the dice.

When my guys hit level 20, which will be in the next 2 months, it will be a great achievement, our first ever D&D campaign to reach level 20. And one they made on their own backs.

That's a lousy approach.

It sounds like your group likes to play maximum combat challenge D&D. Well and good. You're actually tailoring your approach to their preferences.

But if your players focus, frex, on undead-fighting abilities and you decide to plan a campaign with with no undead in it, that's poor DMing. You're designing the campaign so that it's not fun for them. Moreover, it's an unreasonable approach. PCs focused on destroying undead are going to go looking for opponents they care about, not whatever your plan was.

In the case of the all-thief party, if a patron came around and said "I need you to slay a dragon" the reasonable answer would be "no, we'll pass on this one." On the other hand if an opportunity came along appropriate to their strengths, say an opportunity to steal a dragon treasue, they would be all over it.

 

[sithramir]

None of this works against adult dragons.

Why would flier enter color spray range? Flier in a room? Totally negates his advantage. If you have anchor points, he's still hanging in a web above you that you can't get to. He doesn't drop to the ground, he hangs in the web.

Oops I meant hypnotic pattern. Not color spray. Name mixed up.

And yes they do work as I've used them. Why wouldn't the dragon ever get within 120' of the party? Tasha's is much shorter range but could be readied.

If its legendary it obviously is harder. Except not all of them appear to have legendary resistance.

They have a +1 or +2 wis save so the percent failure is very high. Seems a good bet.