D&D 5E 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

[KarinsDad]

But now you are completely disregarding both the direct and indirect costs of that extra damage.

(Being the -5 to attacks and not-taking-an-ASI-or-other-feat, respectively)

Such shallow analysis makes me regard your take as an emotional outburst, nothing more.

If you want to participate, how about giving your complete take on -5/+5? Most forumists seem to agree this is worthless in regular combat. The "+5" part is obviously good, but not good enough to compensate for the "-5" part. Not to speak of the other goodies the feat brings. And, to repeat myself, not to speak of the fact that you just did not take one of the other feats, or +2 to Strength or whatever.

Since most forumists also agree -5/+10 is way too much, I conclude that if the feat lay somewhere in between, it could otherwise be left untouched, and thus we would have a minimal change, which is often the best change.

It doesn't take much to realize that at level 4 when most PCs can first take a feat, it's not that hard to negate most of the -5. Even comparing it to +1/+1 of taking a stat boost, it's fairly easy to illustrate that without any attempt to minimize the penalty, these feats are stronger than a stat boost.

Simple example:

75% chance to hit normally (AC 11), 16 Str.

Level 3 DPR with greatsword: .7*10+.05*17 = 7.85
Level 4 DPR with +1/+1: .75*11+.05*18 = 9.15
Level 4 DPR with GWM (not using -5/+10): .7*10+.05*(17+7.85) = 8.2425 (not including the bonus attack 7.85 DPR if a foe is dropped but not criticaled, maybe one round in two to four so +1.9 to +3.9 more DPR)
Level 4 DPR with GWM (using -5/+10): .45*20+.05*(27+.45*10+.05*27) = 10.6425 (not including the bonus attack 5.85 DPR if a foe is dropped but not criticaled, maybe one round in three to six so +1.0 to +2.0 more DPR)

50% chance to hit normally (AC 16), 16 Str.

Level 3 DPR with greatsword: .45*10+.05*17 = 5.35
Level 4 DPR with +1/+1: .5*11+.05*18 = 6.4
Level 4 DPR with GWM (not using -5/+10): .45*10+.05*(17+7.85) = 5.7425 (not including the bonus attack 5.85 DPR if a foe is dropped but not criticaled, maybe one round in two to four so +1.5 to +2.9 more DPR)
Level 4 DPR with GWM (using -5/+10): .2*20+.05*(27+.20*20+.05*27) = 5.6175 (not including the bonus attack 5.35 DPR if a foe is dropped but not criticaled, maybe one round in three to six so +1.8 to +2.7 more DPR)


So GWM is stronger than +1/+1 in all cases except when not using the -5/+10 against a solo (or in a scenario where the melee PC cannot get to another foe with his movement in the same round). Every +1 to hit that an ally can give the melee GWM PC makes both GWM using and not using the -5/+10 even stronger than the +1/+1.


As for the -5 cost, that's fairly trivial come level 4 with spells like Bless around. Sure, Bless could make the +1/+1 case better, but the DPR would still be worse in that case. This is not very different then Sneak Attack. By himself, the Rogue rarely gets a spike of damage. It's mostly with the assistance of others. The same applies to GWM and Sharpshooter. The GWM PC does good without other's assistance, but when they do help him, he goes nuts.

And at level 5 with multiple attacks and +1 proficiency, the DPR delta becomes even greater. Monster AC does not keep up with proficiency, spells, stat boosts, and magic items. GWM just keeps getting stronger and stronger. Just with all of the discussions on buffing and flying the GWM PC, it should be fairly obvious that it's a tactic that works and works (too) well. If it's stronger than +1/+1 in the single attack per round case, it's even stronger in the multiple attack per round case.


Now, if you want to find the break even point for -5/+x at various levels, do the math yourself. I am not interested in a -5/+x solution.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Bless has an opportunity cost too, you know. It eats a round of combat to cast and also your concentration, so analysis of Blessed GWM needs to offset other things you could be doing with that concentration, like Spirit Guardians, Call Lightning, or Banishment. It's certainly not free.

 

[Fanaelialae]

It depends. If a Large Fighter with fly grappled a dragon in midair, I would probably say he held it in place. He has a means of staying aloft. If the dragon move involuntarily, it automatically breaks the grapple because the player can't move if he has used his move up.

The hand is the same way. If the hand grapples the dragon and you have the dragon fall, the hand can't move. It has already moved the amount if can move. So you would free the dragon if the hand had to stay in place and the dragon moved. The hand is magical. Don't suddenly start applying weight and physics to a magical force hand or even an enlarged fighter.

If you start doing that, then the reality is that even a large magical force hand or enlarged fighter would have zero change of grappling a dragon. Same as the strongest human in the world would have zero chance of grappling an elephant or rhino in the real world. In fact, you could take the strongest, most skilled Olympic wrestler in the world, he can't grapple a wild tiger or a lion or a bear. So suddenly bringing in the idea that "weight" matters is a bad idea. You can only use the spell descriptions. A Bigby's hand is strong enough to grapple a huge creature, thus strong enough to hold it aloft.

As usual, you rule as you wish. That's how I see it.

See, if an enlarged fighter grappled a huge dragon in my game, he'd have the choice to fall with it or release it. He wouldn't be able to hold it in the air though, for the same reason he wouldn't be able to lift the dragon off the ground if he tried the same thing at ground level. Granted, a magical hand of force doesn't have to follow the same logic, which is why it's the DM's call.

I don't have falling break a grapple by default. To me, that would be absurd. Unlike most forced movement, falling is not an explosive force. You can easily find videos of people linking hands while falling. Therefore, it stands to reason that falling doesn't automatically break a grapple so long as both parties are falling. Besides, tackling a flying creature out of the air has made for some epic moments in previous campaigns.

Let me ask you the same question Verbal Kint asked Dave Coulon in The Usual Suspects, "What if you miss?"

Cross your fingers and hope Absorb Elements / Shield (depending on what the dragon is attacking with) is enough to keep you going. It's not really all that different from miscalculating because you assumed the DM would use a non-spellcasting dragon, but instead the dragon Dispels the warrior's Fly spell and the warrior gets reacquainted with gravity. If we (gamers) didn't enjoy a certain degree of randomness, we'd sit around a table telling stories without using dice.

I hate dying too, but sometimes the dice won't fall your way. If the paladin flies up to engage the dragon and the dragon responds with a flurry of nat 20s that kill the paladin, then you probably die.

Telekinesis is a valid choice. It's riskier than Fly, but the reward is greater. There's certainly no shame in preferring the more conservative gamble, but you're still gambling either way.

So feats and abilities you're not always going to have. When a strategy starts to rely on specific feats and abilities you won't have access to, that is not a strategy at all. That's something I would have to plan from level 1. I'm not going to do that.

You can't exactly assume that every party will have access to Fly. I'm playing a level 7 wizard and I didn't pick Fly. Unless I happen to find it somewhere, my party will be going through the rest of that campaign without Fly.

Every party is different. (Technically with point buy you could make the exact same party over and over, but who would honestly do that?) The best anyone can do is point out potential strategies for beating a dragon if you have this or your have that.

We didn't have Sentinel. But that did become a more effective tactic without the reach. Though the dragon will probably choose a different target if the Sentinel guy is keeping him locked down. That could be a problem as well.

The great thing about Sentinel is that once he has the dragon on lockdown, the dragon will probably stay on lockdown. And unless the dragon has used divination to research the party, or the DM is meta-gaming, the dragon has no means to avoid being put into lockdown as long as the Sentinel can get adjacent to it.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The great thing about Sentinel is that once he has the dragon on lockdown, the dragon will probably stay on lockdown.

This seems like an overstatement to me. The dragon can (attempt to) knock the Sentinel guy prone with one of his claws and then fly away. One opportunity attack against AC 18 with +8 to hit at disadvantage will hit only 30% of the time.

Edit: two other ways to get free of a Sentinel are:

1.) Grapple him and bring him with you.
2.) Escape using your legendary action.

Because Sentinel only reduces your speed to 0 for the rest of that turn, not round, you are guaranteed to escape. On your turn you try to grapple the sentinel or knock him over, and then you spend your movement to move back. If it works, great! If not, he hits you and your speed is reduced to 0 for the rest of your turn. Then on the next character's turn you use your legendary action to fly 40 feet straight up. Sentinel has already used his reaction so he can't stop you.

 

[DaveDash]

We tested the Telekensis option and it's a terrible terrible option. This was just some mucking around and not the proper fight.

Firstly it's range is 60ft, meaning if you can get the Dragon, it can get you. You can only move it 30ft as well, you're on the back foot on the checks to succeed - and you have to burn your resources like inspiration to keep it down.

In one attempt we had a Wizard ready it to try and snare the Dragon. He burnt inspiration to pass the check. Dragon just breathed on him and that was GG.
Hiding then trying to snare the Dragon on the Wizards turn is hard work, given how mobile it is and the limited range of telekinesis. Relies way too much on luck, and then if you get the Dragon down, you still have to kill it.

There's also a big problem with the spell. You can't move objects more than 1000lbs. That puts the whole premise you can move a Dragon in doubt. RAW yes, but my players had a big issue with the idea you can't move a 1001lb rock, but you could move a 5000lb+ Dragon.

No one at my table thinks Bigby's should make the Dragon fall. A grapple is holding in place.

I actually actually don't think this fight is winnable using conventional tactics with a Fighter/Rogue/Wizard/Cleric, although I'm going to try.

Really need the Paladin for fear immunity/self heals/massive OA damage. Bard for Haste, Tiefling Abjurer Wizard for Fly, Arcane Ward, and Fire Resist, and Cleric for Heal/Fear debuff. A druid with sentinel and elemental form might work too.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Really need the Paladin for fear immunity/self heals/massive OA damage. Bard for Haste, Wizard for Fly, and Cleric for Heal/Fear debuff.

I think in this thread we've mostly been discussing 8th level party vs. CR 13 adult white, right? Paladin's Aura of Courage doesn't come online until level 10 so you'll need some other way to break Fear (wizard can do it). What Fear debuff do you have in mind for the Cleric to do?

Bard isn't good at Haste--he has to spend a magical secret on it and he has better things to do with that secret.

Paladin's OA at 8th level isn't impressive when that's the only attack you're bringing to the table each round. Approximately 22 DPR when smiting with a 2nd level spell slot (of which you have two) if you have advantage from Oath of Enmity when Blessed. (21 when using Sacred Weapon +4 instead of Oath of Enmity, so no real difference.) GWM boosts it a small percentage, up to 24. Compared to the 80-odd points of damage the dragon will inflict on you, that's pretty pathetic. If you're Hasted you may get as high as 70 damage on the first round, but the dragon just knocked you out of the sky, then scooped your broken body up off the ground and ate it, and now the rest of your party is toast.

Reiterating for the record, I think non-spellcasting dragons are weak in 5E. It's just that melee-heavy parties are even weaker. Especially 8th level melee parties against a CR 13 dragon. If you do this, expect the PCs to die.

 

[Fanaelialae]

This seems like an overstatement to me. The dragon can (attempt to) knock the Sentinel guy prone with one of his claws and then fly away. One opportunity attack against AC 18 with +8 to hit at disadvantage will hit only 30% of the time.

Edit: two other ways to get free of a Sentinel are:

1.) Grapple him and bring him with you.
2.) Escape using your legendary action.

Because Sentinel only reduces your speed to 0 for the rest of that turn, not round, you are guaranteed to escape. On your turn you try to grapple the sentinel or knock him over, and then you spend your movement to move back. If it works, great! If not, he hits you and your speed is reduced to 0 for the rest of your turn. Then on the next character's turn you use your legendary action to fly 40 feet straight up. Sentinel has already used his reaction so he can't stop you.

Fair enough. I hadn't realized the speed reduction was only for that turn.

 

[DaveDash]

I think in this thread we've mostly been discussing 8th level party vs. CR 13 adult white, right? Paladin's Aura of Courage doesn't come online until level 10 so you'll need some other way to break Fear (wizard can do it). What Fear debuff do you have in mind for the Cleric to do?

Bard isn't good at Haste--he has to spend a magical secret on it and he has better things to do with that secret.

Paladin's OA at 8th level isn't impressive when that's the only attack you're bringing to the table each round. Approximately 22 DPR when smiting with a 2nd level spell slot (of which you have two) if you have advantage from Oath of Enmity when Blessed. (21 when using Sacred Weapon +4 instead of Oath of Enmity, so no real difference.) GWM boosts it a small percentage, up to 24. Compared to the 80-odd points of damage the dragon will inflict on you, that's pretty pathetic. If you're Hasted you may get as high as 70 damage on the first round, but the dragon just knocked you out of the sky, then scooped your broken body up off the ground and ate it, and now the rest of your party is toast.

Reiterating for the record, I think non-spellcasting dragons are weak in 5E. It's just that melee-heavy parties are even weaker. Especially 8th level melee parties against a CR 13 dragon. If you do this, expect the PCs to die.

We haven't been discussing that as a rule. We've had general discussions about melee's mobility problems, highlighting Dragon fights as an example, but also disputing claims that casters shouldn't really need to buff their melee guys because there are other "easy" ways to defeat Dragons.

So no, I'm not talking about that scenario at all. I'm talking about putting some peoples theories to the test re Bigby's Hand, javelins, lack of fly/haste, and Telekensis by pitching a level 12 party against an adult red.

Celtivan and I have said on numerous occasions that this is more of a higher level issue, fighting smaller Dragons at the lower levels is out of scope, so I'm not really paying any attention to the Level 8 party vs CR13 Dragon discussion.

The game works reasonably well up to about level 8, it's past that things start to become strained, becoming more apparent the higher you go.

It's still FAR better than other editions of D&D (although I never played 4e at the top end), but its useful to know these things for if you get there. Henry Handaxes player has probably invested months if not years into his character and DMs should heed certain strains on the game for their players sake.

 

[Fanaelialae]

We tested the Telekensis option and it's a terrible terrible option. This was just some mucking around and not the proper fight.

Firstly it's range is 60ft, meaning if you can get the Dragon, it can get you. You can only move it 30ft as well, you're on the back foot on the checks to succeed - and you have to burn your resources like inspiration to keep it down.

In one attempt we had a Wizard ready it to try and snare the Dragon. He burnt inspiration to pass the check. Dragon just breathed on him and that was GG.
Hiding then trying to snare the Dragon on the Wizards turn is hard work, given how mobile it is and the limited range of telekinesis. Relies way too much on luck, and then if you get the Dragon down, you still have to kill it.

I did say to stay inside the Hamsterball until the dragon wasted its breath weapon. This strategy is predicated on the assumption that the dragon doesn't fall back on the incredibly boring tactic of only making breath weapon strafing runs against the party. It only works if he makes melee strafing runs against the party.

However, I have a counter measure for the dragon who just flies around waiting for his breath weapon to recharge. I call it, "I take the most valuable-looking item in the horde and leave". Now I have something nice, and the dragon has to come get it back (assuming he wants it back, but this is a dragon we're talking about).

There's also a big problem with the spell. You can't move objects more than 1000lbs. That puts the whole premise you can move a Dragon in doubt. RAW yes, but my players had a big issue with the idea you can't move a 1001lb rock, but you could move a 5000lb+ Dragon..

Yeah, I agree that it's a bit silly, but the spell pretty clearly states that it works differently on creatures than objects. With creatures there's a size limit, with objects there's a weight limit. Honestly, what kind of of huge sized creature would weigh less than 1000 lbs? An elephant isn't even the biggest huge size monster (there are dinosaurs in the MM that were bigger than elephants) and it weighs in at an average of 12,000 lbs. Thus, the weight limit cannot possibly have been intended to apply to creatures.

 

[DaveDash]

I did say to stay inside the Hamsterball until the dragon wasted its breath weapon. This strategy is predicated on the assumption that the dragon doesn't fall back on the incredibly boring tactic of only making breath weapon strafing runs against the party. It only works if he makes melee strafing runs against the party.

However, I have a counter measure for the dragon who just flies around waiting for his breath weapon to recharge. I call it, "I take the most valuable-looking item in the horde and leave". Now I have something nice, and the dragon has to come get it back (assuming he wants it back, but this is a dragon we're talking about).



Yeah, I agree that it's a bit silly, but the spell pretty clearly states that it works differently on creatures than objects. With creatures there's a size limit, with objects there's a weight limit. Honestly, what kind of of huge sized creature would weigh less than 1000 lbs? An elephant isn't even the biggest huge size monster (there are dinosaurs in the MM that were bigger than elephants) and it weighs in at an average of 12,000 lbs. Thus, the weight limit cannot possibly have been intended to apply to creatures.

Yeah it's all too many ifs for my tastes. We also play Dragons to win, not to be cinematic.

I think we will need to think of more unconventional tactics. If the characters know a Dragon fight is in their near future, how would that change things? Or we can assume they can wall of force themselves, put Wind Walk on, then get the hell out of dodge (that's what my group would do), and come back and prepare for another day.

What tactics could they use then? Any summons (elementals), tricks or traps they could employ?