D&D 5E 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

So the trick once again is providing illumination the dragon can't use that you can use to exceed your darkvision range while using invisibility to stay out of his blindsight range. Another thing to set up in your complex strategy. Another thing the casters need to set up for the rogue unless he is an Arcane Trickster. So owl flying with torch near dragon? Or arrow with light spell stuck into ground near dragon? At least this one is arguably easier to overcome once you have the dragon restrained with bigby's hand, especially considering the rogue won't fear the breath weapon unless it is a Con based breath weapon. He can save pretty easily with a good dex save. If he is an Arcane Trickster, he can pick up the new absorb elements spell to pretty much guarantee the most he will take the few times he misses his save is a 1/4 damage since evasion is not damage resistance and does stack with absorb elements, though he will have to use one of his precious non-enchantment/illusion slots to obtain the spell usually reserved for haste and shield.

Sure, once the rogue solves the visibility issues, he can sneak attack. Hopefully a group with a rogue has taken account of this variable prior to the attack and will set it up to keep the rogue's damage high. I don't think it would be too hard for a rogue to set up outside the range of the dragon and use some means to light it once it has been restrained. Visibility while not restrained would be a great deal trickier. bigby's hand won't work quite as well on an ancient dragon.

The amusing thing about this "winning" strategy is it assumes the Dragon does not react and sips cups of tea.

Last night we were approaching the main lair through a cavern system, which the Dragon had alarm and detect magic spells wired up in it. We knew this from our own detect magic of course, and we had also scouted the entire complex with Arcane eye.

The main Dragon complex itself was at the base of a volcano, filled with smoke, lava, and other difficult obstacles. For us to actually gain entry into that cavern from the ground we had to traverse down through the tunnels in the cavern system, into a smoke filled lava pit where we had very poor visibility.

Anything heading out into that lava pit complex - owls, skeletons, or whatever would get chewed up by the Dragon perched out of line of sight above the mouth of the cave. Not to mention, to actually get line of effect to attack it meant exiting the tunnel completely into the lava pit complex - which was total suicide. If we all ran out we had no cover in there to hide behind and we would have had to disperse, making us easy pickings for the Dragon and its blind sight in such hazy poor visibility conditions.

But yeah, if you run Dragons as lazy lizards that just sleep on their treasure waiting for adventurers to march in with their army of owls and skeletons, then no worries, but such Dragons would never reach adulthood in the first place due to darwinism. Any petty lord would just gather his levies and wipe out any Dragon once they got wind of its lair in such a world.

I also think people who run ThoM miss out on a lot of nitty gritty detail when coming up with their grand plans, that are much more obvious when you run grid based combat. You can assume much more and have loser assumptions in THoM vs grid. But hey apparently I'm tactically inept so what do I know.
 
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I forgot to mention the invisibility for the rogue will take a concentration slot. With the mage concentrating on bigby's hand, the bard likely concentrating on a bless or I guess a conjure animal spell, not sure where the other concentration slot comes from unless the rogue is an arcane trickster or the fighter an eldritch knight that has used one of his non-abjuration/evocation spells on invisibility.

We never used TotM. Even when I was young back in the 1E days, we used graph paper and mapped everything out. We like a physical representation of dungeons and battlefields. Most of our players are very visual. So having some visual representation of the battlefield was preferred, so they could make appropriate decisions involving terrain and movement. I found it much easier to adjudicate the game using graph paper back then and battle mats now.

In 5E dragons as lazy lizards is making them too easy. I don't even like the fact they have to be so careful about moving. I want a dragon to be able to land in the middle of a party and start a brutal fight no matter the party attempts to do. I want them to feel like they're fighting Smaug. Even in 5E dragons feel weak, even the caster variety. Even the idea of a dragon having to turn invisible or cast fog cloud to fight a party doesn't fit what I think dragons should be like. Fighting a dragon should be a frightening experience that cannot be circumvented by casting giant owls and using skeleton archers. I can't have that. Spell casting variant or pure battle beast, a dragon of adult or older age should be able to put a party on its heels in a straight up brutal fight. I'm going to modify them until that is what they can do.

I played it by the book to start, so I could see how it all worked. It's time to start making brutal creatures mechanically strong enough to serve their function in the narrative.
 

The amusing thing about this "winning" strategy is it assumes the Dragon does not react and sips cups of tea.

Last night we were approaching the main lair through a cavern system, which the Dragon had alarm and detect magic spells wired up in it. We knew this from our own detect magic of course, and we had also scouted the entire complex with Arcane eye.

The main Dragon complex itself was at the base of a volcano, filled with smoke, lava, and other difficult obstacles. For us to actually gain entry into that cavern from the ground we had to traverse down through the tunnels in the cavern system, into a smoke filled lava pit where we had very poor visibility.

Anything heading out into that lava pit complex - owls, skeletons, or whatever would get chewed up by the Dragon perched out of line of sight above the mouth of the cave. Not to mention, to actually get line of effect to attack it meant exiting the tunnel completely into the lava pit complex - which was total suicide. If we all ran out we had no cover in there to hide behind and we would have had to disperse, making us easy pickings for the Dragon and its blind sight in such hazy poor visibility conditions.

But yeah, if you run Dragons as lazy lizards that just sleep on their treasure waiting for adventurers to march in with their army of owls and skeletons, then no worries, but such Dragons would never reach adulthood in the first place due to darwinism. Any petty lord would just gather his levies and wipe out any Dragon once they got wind of its lair in such a world.

I also think people who run ThoM miss out on a lot of nitty gritty detail when coming up with their grand plans, that are much more obvious when you run grid based combat. You can assume much more and have loser assumptions in THoM vs grid. But hey apparently I'm tactically inept so what do I know.

Not to mention the numerous lair guardians usually in place that lead to battles that alert the dragon to the presence of strangers. There is a lot more going that makes it not so easy to sneak up on dragons.
 

So the trick once again is providing illumination the dragon can't use that you can use to exceed your darkvision range while using invisibility to stay out of his blindsight range. Another thing to set up in your complex strategy. Another thing the casters need to set up for the rogue unless he is an Arcane Trickster.

No, really, it's your trick. Remember you're the who said you can't use Invisibility against a dragon because of blindsight. I just pointed out to you that blindsight is barely a factor. Needing to illuminate the dragon is something you needed to do anyway unless everyone in the party has darkvision--and all-darkvision parties are a distinct minority. I use them (via Darkvision spell) when I want to be stealthy, but most people just light a torch.

All I did was yet again point out a limitation on the dragon which you had overlooked. If you'd said something like "You can't use Invisibility to gain advantage anywhere within 60', and there's no way to get beyond 60' because blahblahblah," I wouldn't even have needed to say anything. But for the sake of future rogues fighting future dragons I did want to remind people that blindsight has a range.
 

No, really, it's your trick. Remember you're the who said you can't use Invisibility against a dragon because of blindsight. I just pointed out to you that blindsight is barely a factor. Needing to illuminate the dragon is something you needed to do anyway unless everyone in the party has darkvision--and all-darkvision parties are a distinct minority. I use them (via Darkvision spell) when I want to be stealthy, but most people just light a torch.

All I did was yet again point out a limitation on the dragon which you had overlooked. If you'd said something like "You can't use Invisibility to gain advantage anywhere within 60', and there's no way to get beyond 60' because blahblahblah," I wouldn't even have needed to say anything. But for the sake of future rogues fighting future dragons I did want to remind people that blindsight has a range.

Is it really my trick? I was agreeing with Dave that rogues will have a hard time getting advantage on a dragon with no one in melee. All you did was point out that it was possible. I don't disagree. I understand where Dave is coming from and why his rogue had a hard time doing damage. You have to set him up to do damage using more party resources, whereas a ranged striker using Sharpshooter like a ranger or fighter doesn't need much set up.

We can toss out the entire strategy you presuppose by having some badass archers/ranged attackers ready to rock and roll on the dragon. That's been the gist of my participation in the discussion. This new concentration mechanic makes melee martials a liability compared to ranged attackers because you have to use that concentration slot to get them in the fight, whereas ranged attackers hammer and hammer hard without much needed assistance besides illumination which everyone in the group needs. I don't think I like melee martials being such a liability. Not real fun for them, not real fun for casters.

A mechanic that punishes players for class and weapon choices is not a good mechanic in my opinion. When it not only punishes the player playing the class and weapon choice, but the caster who has to limit himself to help that player get into battle, that is a mechanic that could use a look from the designers. I wrote my own modified concentration rule that will hopefully take some of the punitive effect away. We'll see how it works.

This is what I'm going to use:

Extra Concentration: Beginning at 5th level, you can concentrate on a second spell that can be no more than half of the maximum level spell you can cast (rounded down). One of the two spells you are concentrating on must be a spell cast on at least one other allied target other than yourself (but can include yourself if the spell includes multiple targets). If you are required to make a concentration check, you make a separate roll for each spell. For example, a 6th level wizard can cast up to 3rd level spells, allowing him to cast and concentrate on a second spell of 1st level or lower. So a 6th level wizard could cast fly on the fighter and tasha’s hideous laughter on an enemy, while maintaining concentration on both.
 

Is it really my trick? I was agreeing with Dave that rogues will have a hard time getting advantage on a dragon with no one in melee. All you did was point out that it was possible. I don't disagree. I understand where Dave is coming from and why his rogue had a hard time doing damage. You have to set him up to do damage using more party resources, whereas a ranged striker using Sharpshooter like a ranger or fighter doesn't need much set up.

We can toss out the entire strategy you presuppose by having some badass archers/ranged attackers ready to rock and roll on the dragon. That's been the gist of my participation in the discussion. This new concentration mechanic makes melee martials a liability compared to ranged attackers because you have to use that concentration slot to get them in the fight, whereas ranged attackers hammer and hammer hard without much needed assistance besides illumination which everyone in the group needs. I don't think I like melee martials being such a liability. Not real fun for them, not real fun for casters.

A mechanic that punishes players for class and weapon choices is not a good mechanic in my opinion. When it not only punishes the player playing the class and weapon choice, but the caster who has to limit himself to help that player get into battle, that is a mechanic that could use a look from the designers. I wrote my own modified concentration rule that will hopefully take some of the punitive effect away. We'll see how it works.

This is what I'm going to use:

Extra Concentration: Beginning at 5th level, you can concentrate on a second spell that can be no more than half of the maximum level spell you can cast (rounded down). One of the two spells you are concentrating on must be a spell cast on at least one other allied target other than yourself (but can include yourself if the spell includes multiple targets). If you are required to make a concentration check, you make a separate roll for each spell. For example, a 6th level wizard can cast up to 3rd level spells, allowing him to cast and concentrate on a second spell of 1st level or lower. So a 6th level wizard could cast fly on the fighter and tasha’s hideous laughter on an enemy, while maintaining concentration on both.

Ranged is only stronger by default if the DM fails to exploit its weaknesses. Cover plays a large role in this regard (albeit, Sharpshooter reduces this issue by ignoring half and three quarters cover). Also, it's not a given if you're running a more dungeon oriented campaign, where encounter distances will frequently favor melee. Outside, however, unless your campaign world is a giant salt flat, there should be plenty of cover/concealment to exploit, assuming that your encounters start at ranges where ranged combat has the advantage. Most D&D worlds are fairly primitive, so outside of civilization things should be ancient and overgrown, offering plenty of cover opportunities.

Ranged combatants should weave in and out of cover. Rather than performing a suicide charge, melee should approach under cover. If your monsters are using tactics comparable to the red coats in the Revolutionary War, you're playing them sub-optimally. If they are not, then ranged attackers should have a hard time hitting them as they approach.

While Crossbow Experts can melee, melee-specialists will typically out perform them. Shield users will be harder to hit, while two-handed weapon users will be doing more damage per hit.

Admittedly, ranged attackers have an easier time with flying opponents than melee attackers, but there are ways to mitigate this even without caster intervention. Magic items such a a Broom of Flying or Carpet of Flying can make Fly largely unnecessary (certain carpets are even faster than Fly). And flying attackers should be using cover just like other enemies. While getting your one readied attack as a ranged attacker is better than no attacks as melee without flight, it isn't much.

Then there are the advantages unique to melee. Some of the best damage enhancing items are Strength or melee-only items. Belt of Giant Strength. Flame Tongue Sword.

I mean sure, magic items are optional, but then so are feats. And without Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert, a ranged-specialist is a lot less amazing. Negating the penalties for anything short of full cover and for firing while in melee is pretty huge for ranged builds.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think melee is weaker than range in the larger scope of things. In a white room (or salt flats) sure. But if you're putting melee at a disadvantage by starting typical encounters hundreds of feet apart, then you ought to be putting the range at a disadvantage by placing plenty of opportunities for cover in between. A road may be flat and open, but what about the hills or woods to either side of that road? Melee has its own strengths as well as weaknesses, just as ranged does. Which of those strengths are played to, and which weaknesses played against, will depend very much upon the campaign and even moreso upon the DM.
 

Is it really my trick? I was agreeing with Dave that rogues will have a hard time getting advantage on a dragon with no one in melee. All you did was point out that it was possible. I don't disagree. I understand where Dave is coming from and why his rogue had a hard time doing damage. You have to set him up to do damage using more party resources, whereas a ranged striker using Sharpshooter like a ranger or fighter doesn't need much set up.

Oh, it was Dave's trick? Sorry, I can't see his posts any more so I didn't realize you were continuing a conversation with him. I agree that rogues are much more finicky and resource-bound than a Sharpshooter.
 

Ranged is only stronger by default if the DM fails to exploit its weaknesses. Cover plays a large role in this regard (albeit, Sharpshooter reduces this issue by ignoring half and three quarters cover). Also, it's not a given if you're running a more dungeon oriented campaign, where encounter distances will frequently favor melee. Outside, however, unless your campaign world is a giant salt flat, there should be plenty of cover/concealment to exploit, assuming that your encounters start at ranges where ranged combat has the advantage. Most D&D worlds are fairly primitive, so outside of civilization things should be ancient and overgrown, offering plenty of cover opportunities.

Cover works against melee too--the only requirement to use cover is that the attack has to originate on the other side of cover. There's nothing about "against ranged attacks" in the cover rules.

I do think that it's smart for ranged specialists to also be competent in melee, because if you can't fight in tiny tunnels you're strategically limiting yourself. But even in tiny tunnels, it's often better to have one melee tank and three range specialists, because that way you can bring four PCs' worth of firepower to bear on a chokepoint whereas if everyone were a melee specialist you could only bring one. (And Sharpshooter again shows its worth by preventing your chokepoint PC from acting as involuntary cover, making it harder to shoot the enemies beyond him.)

Melee can be stronger in niche situations, but you'll almost always have more tactical flexibility with a ranged capability, which is why even melee dudes should carry throwing daggers.

But if you're putting melee at a disadvantage by starting typical encounters hundreds of feet apart, then you ought to be putting the range at a disadvantage by placing plenty of opportunities for cover in between. A road may be flat and open, but what about the hills or woods to either side of that road?


Playing with cover on both sides is one of the best and funnest parts of ranged combats. (Yes, I'm a BattleTech fan.) Melee-only guys are left out of that and have no real option for getting engaged but to charge across no-man's land, getting peppered with arrows in the process, in hopes of surviving long enough to enter the fight on the other side. Hobgoblins love shooting dumb greataxe-wielders full of arrows. I don't actually get to play ranged adversaries as often as I'd like because my PCs avoid fighting intelligent opponents (they'd rather explore than wage war), but when it happens it's fun.

And it's not unlikely at all that the hobgoblins will have a field of fire hundreds or thousands of feet long. Not to beat a dead horse, but 600' isn't very far. It's the distance your car goes in 12 seconds when you're moving at 35 mph through a residential neighborhood. It shouldn't be hard in most terrain for rational enemies to choose a position that gives them a field of fire at least 600' long. Even in the "road through the woods" scenario, this could mean a hobgoblin barricade across the road manned by four archers (3/4 cover), who engage anyone getting within 600'. Melee PCs can get off their horses and sneak through the woods to get to the hobgoblins (roll Stealth checks) while missile-using PCs get behind cover of their own and keep them busy in an archery duel--this is a best case scenario for the melee guys[1] but the ranged guys are still more than holding their own, and it's more than possible that by the time melee guys get into range through the difficult terrain, the hobgoblins will already be dead.

[1] Well, not quite. A best-case scenario for the melee guys is actually "night attack." Melee and ranged are very nearly equivalent at night.
 
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Cover works against melee too--the only requirement to use cover is that the attack has to originate on the other side of cover. There's nothing about "against ranged attacks" in the cover rules.

I do think that it's smart for ranged specialists to also be competent in melee, because if you can't fight in tiny tunnels you're strategically limiting yourself. But even in tiny tunnels, it's often better to have one melee tank and three range specialists, because that way you can bring four PCs' worth of firepower to bear on a chokepoint whereas if everyone were a melee specialist you could only bring one. (And Sharpshooter again shows its worth by preventing your chokepoint PC from acting as involuntary cover, making it harder to shoot the enemies beyond him.)

Melee can be stronger in niche situations, but you'll almost always have more tactical flexibility with a ranged capability, which is why even melee dudes should carry throwing daggers.

Technically you are correct, however, it is often effortless to move around cover once you're in melee range. On the other hand, if you're 300 feet from your target, moving 30 feet to the left or the right often won't accomplish much in terms of reducing cover.

It depends. If want to hold a 20 foot wide "choke point", one melee guy simply won't cut it. Even holding a 10 foot wide point will be impossible if the enemies are willing to take OAs.

But I do agree 100% about everyone carrying some kind of ranged weapon. Not doing so is plain crazy.


Playing with cover on both sides is one of the best and funnest parts of ranged combats. (Yes, I'm a BattleTech fan.) Melee-only guys are left out of that and have no real option for getting engaged but to charge across no-man's land, getting peppered with arrows in the process, in hopes of surviving long enough to enter the fight on the other side. Hobgoblins love shooting dumb greataxe-wielders full of arrows. I don't actually get to play ranged adversaries as often as I'd like because my PCs avoid fighting intelligent opponents (they'd rather explore than wage war), but when it happens it's fun.

Having no other option than to charge across a no-man's land makes a lot more sense for a mech than a halfling. I would argue that not being able to find cover within 60 feet of you should probably be the exception rather than the rule.

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I didn't see your edit until after my reply.

And it's not unlikely at all that the hobgoblins will have a field of fire hundreds or thousands of feet long. Not to beat a dead horse, but 600' isn't very far. It's the distance your car goes in 12 seconds when you're moving at 35 mph through a residential neighborhood. It shouldn't be hard in most terrain for rational enemies to choose a position that gives them a field of fire at least 600' long. Even in the "road through the woods" scenario, this could mean a hobgoblin barricade across the road manned by four archers (3/4 cover), who engage anyone getting within 600'. Melee PCs can get off their horses and sneak through the woods to get to the hobgoblins (roll Stealth checks) while missile-using PCs get behind cover of their own and keep them busy in an archery duel--this is a best case scenario for the melee guys[1] but the ranged guys are still more than holding their own, and it's more than possible that by the time melee guys get into range through the difficult terrain, the hobgoblins will already be dead.

[1] Well, not quite. A best-case scenario for the melee guys is actually "night attack." Melee and ranged are very nearly equivalent at night.

The melee PCs probably don't have to stealth. Unless those woods are very open, at 600 feet they'll have full concealment and either 3/4 or full cover, IMO. 600 feet of forest is a lot of wood and foliage.

If the hobgoblins are ducking below their barricade between shots, they have full cover. At that point the ranged PCs have to ready actions in order to hit them, which means only one attack per round.

That said, this would be a trivially easy encounter for a Crossbow Expert / Sharpshooter party because we're talking about 4 hobgoblins vs a level 4 to 8 party (the earliest you can get both feats, depending on whether variant human is allowed). If the melee decided to take a leisurely stroll up to the barricade they might be inconvenienced enough to take a short rest. Maybe. With only a +3 to hit and disadvantage for half the way, those hobgoblins will have a hard time hitting heavy armor.
 
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It depends. If want to hold a 20 foot wide "choke point", one melee guy simply won't cut it. Even holding a 10 foot wide point will be impossible if the enemies are willing to take OAs. *snip* Having no other option than to charge across a no-man's land makes a lot more sense for a mech than a halfling. I would argue that not being able to find cover within 60 feet of you should probably be the exception rather than the rule.

For chokepoints I like Mounted Combatant paladins. Warhorses are Large so can block the chokepoint (unless someone Overruns or something), and if the paladin (who is also a Wild Sorcerer) Enlarges himself he'll be Huge and able to block even dragons. That's the plan anyway; so far the paladin isn't high-enough level to actually cast Enlarge.

As an aside: chokepoints are more of a roleplaying thing in 5E than a tactical thing. What I mean by this is that usually the optimal tactic would be to just eat an opportunity attack and Overrun whoever is holding the chokepoint, but I wouldn't do that except for exceptionally well-trained and tactically-aware enemies like hobgoblins or fire giants. For the most part, dumb brutes like ogres, orcs, ropers, perytons, and tyrannosaurs will just attack whatever target is in front of them unless and until it turns out to be too painful to want to bother with; then they will probably just leave (if they can) instead of choosing a weaker target.

I agree that you can reasonably expect to find cover in most places within 60 feet. But finding cover is different from approaching. I would argue that against an enemy with a ranged weapon, being able to approach within 20 feet without ever leaving cover should be the exception, not the rule. Might happen in some urban environments, but should not generally be counted on, especially if the ranged guy is deliberately working to hold the range open. For the most part, greataxe guy is going to have to take cover and also sneak. This is one reason why Stealth and Perception skills are good picks, in my opinion.
 

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