D&D 5E (2014) 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

[Parmandur]

Concentration is basically the greatest thing since sliced bread. So happy they introduced that mechanic.

 

[jgsugden]

Personally, what I feel needs to be fixed isn't the concentration mechanic, but the dragon's fly speed. It should be doubled at least (The fastest a dragon can fly with a dash action is 160ft in 6 seconds, which is 18mph) ...

18 MPH is fast. It doesn't look fast to us when we watch cars from a distance, and it isn't close to fast enough to outrun a thrown dagger, but it is right about the speed that a top tier NFL RB hits in the 40 yard dash. Try asking friend to drive right by you when you're standing at the edge of the curb. It looks a lot faster than you may think... especially if you imagine it being 20 times the size of the car... Plus, some spellcasting dragons may look at longstrider, expeditious retreat, etc... to allow them to cover ground even faster...

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Personally, what I feel needs to be fixed isn't the concentration mechanic, but the dragon's fly speed. It should be doubled at least (The fastest a dragon can fly with a dash action is 160ft in 6 seconds, which is 18mph) Only a fracking moron should be taking up combat against a dragon in the open battlefield where it can strafe.

That is a pretty good idea IMO, but it should be baked into the concept of the dragon from the start, with abundant legends of would be dragonslayer princelings who got caught with their small armies out in the open and only those very few who were quick to flee surviving to tell the tale.

This is one piece of a larger puzzle that perhaps should be thought through carefully: the potency of Fly speeds and the Fly spell.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

18 MPH is fast. It doesn't look fast to us when we watch cars from a distance, and it isn't close to fast enough to outrun a thrown dagger, but it is right about the speed that a top tier NFL RB hits in the 40 yard dash. Try asking friend to drive right by you when you're standing at the edge of the curb. It looks a lot faster than you may think... especially if you imagine it being 20 times the size of the car... Plus, some spellcasting dragons may look at longstrider, expeditious retreat, etc... to allow them to cover ground even faster...

It seems rather slow for things that fly. There are lots of land animals that can sprint to the tune of 40 to 50 mph in the Real World, and horses with skilled riders can sustain 30 mph for a while.

 

[Sacrosanct]

18 MPH is fast. It doesn't look fast to us when we watch cars from a distance, and it isn't close to fast enough to outrun a thrown dagger, but it is right about the speed that a top tier NFL RB hits in the 40 yard dash. Try asking friend to drive right by you when you're standing at the edge of the curb. It looks a lot faster than you may think... especially if you imagine it being 20 times the size of the car... Plus, some spellcasting dragons may look at longstrider, expeditious retreat, etc... to allow them to cover ground even faster...

An eagle can fly over 60mph horizontally (not a dive). 18 MPH is sllllloooooooowwwww. Heck, a duck is twice as fast as a dragon. If a dragon in flight is no faster than a human running? There's a problem there.

 

[KarinsDad]

It seems that 5e has created a new variant of this same problem, that a certain category of fights are dull because the optimal tactics are both boring and obvious once you have figured them out. Obviously there are ways to mitigate the issue, like drop Boots of Flying into the loot; but that is an implicit admission that Celtavian's point is correct.

The general idea of the concentration restriction seems like a great thing to me. But it may be too all or nothing and too inflexible for making the game be as fun as possible.

I think that the Concentration "only one such spell" mechanic went too far overboard in the "get rid of 3E multi-buff".

The four other new pillars of magic: save every round, and concentration can be broken, and most buffs last for an encounter at most, and higher level spells are at a premium, really are sufficient.

In fact, the 1E through 3E games were played for decades without any of these rules and not everyone complained about them. Some people just had fun. Some people complained, but it wasn't everyone. Some of us just had a blast playing the game and didn't whine about Codzilla.


Dragons are intelligent. I think that it makes total sense for a Dragon to send every single one of his henchmen at whomever is casting a Fly spell and just kill that PC (and I don't mean make him unconscious, kill him). That prevents the tactic of the flying melee PC and the Dragon now rules the sky again. Even if the Dragon has to come down and kill the caster itself. Fly down, kill the PC, fly back up all in the same round.

So far in all of these posts about super tough encounters because the PCs are super optimized, I have not once heard how the DM kicked the snot out of the party with a tough encounter run intelligently. I just hear how great the party is because they work as a team, control the battlefield, have these really optimized PCs, etc. I haven't read where the DM has one monster hold off the PC fighter by dodging, how a group of monsters gang tackle the melee guy with multiple shoves and grapples, how the NPCs cast wall spells to split up the party, or come in at them from multiple directions, or force the PCs to come through a choke point, or cast Darkness with area effect spells. The DM has a ton of options to challenge the PCs.


The problem that I have as a DM is that the players are playing PCs that they are constantly improving. The players are learning how to get better tactics and synergize their spells and abilities to the point that they become a very effective team. The monsters, on the other hand, typically only get one shot at it and do not get "opportunities to improve".

There are only two ways that I see to overcome this. Throw tougher foes at the PCs. Or. Pre-plan encounters with specific tactics, environments, and foes that make problems for the PCs. The former is easier to do. The latter takes a lot more effort and I must admit that I do not always have the time to put in that level of thought and effort.

 

[jgsugden]

We're not talking about an Eagle or even a Condor - we're talking about a building sized lizard. If you look at the Smaug scenes in Hobbit 5 Armies, I think I'd clock the dragon at somewhere around 30 MPH as a best guess... If I imagine it a bit slower, it would have been good as well - perhaps more majestic?

Regardless, if you want to compare the game to nature, you'll fail. Eagles in 5E fly at 60' per move - or about 15 MPH, not 60 MPH. If you use the 'real world' speeds, then some of the combat mechanics are impacted heavily. When you can attack in the middle of a move and then return to full cover, massive speeds can become very problematic for game balance. The game needs to be well designed to have fun first, and replicate the real world second.

 

[Ranes]

There are only two ways that I see to overcome this. Throw tougher foes at the PCs. Or. Pre-plan encounters with specific tactics, environments, and foes that make problems for the PCs. The former is easier to do. The latter takes a lot more effort and I must admit that I do not always have the time to put in that level of thought and effort.

The latter is my preferred approach and I agree that it can take quite a lot of time and work. After all, you're trying to provide a satisfying encounter with risk of PC failure (and all that entails), but not a TPK gotcha. It's further complicated when you take into consideration how smart the monster is but also how familiar it is with the environment (especially if we're dealing with a lair) and the tactics have previously worked for it. It's part of the challenge of DM preparation that I love but, time being what it is, I often find myself going into a game with my fingers crossed.

 

[DaveDash]

People make it out like we're running CharOp builds.

We're not. I could never keep up with that in 3rd Edition, and I certainly don't scour the books in 5e for broken combinations.

Min/Max? Sure, but that's how fragile 5es bounded accuracy is, when it can be broken so easily.

Whether its an issue or not is up for debate. I don't really think its that bad, but the thing to watch out for is NOT character vs creature, but how some characters can overshadow others with minimal effort.

Overall I think 5e balance is great. It's not boring like 4e and not out of control like pathfinder. Thebhigh levels are still pretty good. However there are SOME things that break this balance. Arguing for better tactics on the part of the DM is missing the point.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Whether its an issue or not is up for debate. I don't really think its that bad, but the thing to watch out for is NOT character vs creature, but how some characters can overshadow others with minimal effort.

It's trivial to avoid being overshadowed. Just split the party and scout ahead alone. (;

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