D&D 5E 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

Quartz

Hero
Upthread was a comment about expecting there to be a feat to make sword & boarders competitive with GWM. There already is and it's the shield bash feat. You take your bonus Shield Bash attack first, and if it succeeds, not only are all your attacks against that foe are made with Advantage, but so are everyone else's. That's hugely powerful
 

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Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Upthread was a comment about expecting there to be a feat to make sword & boarders competitive with GWM. There already is and it's the shield bash feat. You take your bonus Shield Bash attack first, and if it succeeds, not only are all your attacks against that foe are made with Advantage, but so are everyone else's. That's hugely powerful

I didn't say sword and boarders.

I wrote Two-weapon fighters and single-weapon fencing types.

Sword and boarders are fine.
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
All this talk about flying opponents. It's ludicrously easy to bring down fliers. You only need to reduce their speed to 0. Good grief, tripping them will do it. Granted a bit trickier with very large creatures, but, sheesh, there's a million and one ways to stop a flier. If the mountain won't come...

Of course, my first act as a DM would be to target the crap out of casters just to break concentration. Kill two birds with one stone. Javelins have a range of 120 feet and it's not that hard to negate disadvantage by gaining advantage on the attack - if the baddies are out of javelin range, they likely can't hurt you anyway. Who needs a bow?

And why wouldn't a land bound fighter, facing numerous flying opponents (it is a dragon filled series of modules) not look for a flying mount?

It seems to me that presuming that the party casters will automatically cast the buffs I want seems a bit presumptuous.

I haven't found it to be ludicrously easy to stop dragons from flying. Why wouldn't he look for a flying mount? Because not every DM allows you to find one easily? Not every player has the ability to use one proficiently? And they are easily killed by creatures like dragons because they don't have evasion and similar abilities like mounts in 3E?

No, it isn't presumptuous. It's smart play to allow your heavy hitters to get into battle.

When I read stuff like this, all it does it make me think how little experience you have fighting such creatures, especially a bunch of them at the same time like a dragon flight or a dragon in its lair or a horde of flying outsiders with reach. Makes it seem like you have nearly no experience in 5E. The thing you think is easy isn't.
 

I haven't found it to be ludicrously easy to stop dragons from flying. Why wouldn't he look for a flying mount? Because not every DM allows you to find one easily? Not every player has the ability to use one proficiently? And they are easily killed by creatures like dragons because they don't have evasion and similar abilities like mounts in 3E?

No, it isn't presumptuous. It's smart play to allow your heavy hitters to get into battle.

When I read stuff like this, all it does it make me think how little experience you have fighting such creatures, especially a bunch of them at the same time like a dragon flight or a dragon in its lair or a horde of flying outsiders with reach. Makes it seem like you have nearly no experience in 5E. The thing you think is easy isn't.


At this point I do not think you even play D&D, but here, performing some sort of experiment.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Why is this concept so hard for so many of you to understand?

Well, when you keep saying things like this, don't be shocked that people come away with certain impressions of your argument.

The game is repetitive. The concentration mechanic in 5E makes it this way for casters. What are we supposed to do? Let the melee martial stand there doing nothing against a flying enemy while a caster tries to take it out burning all his spell slots? Make every player that wants to play a martial character play a ranged striker? As the caster player in that group, I would have liked to try other spells in combat. I was stuck casting fly on the martial due to the concentration mechanic or he was nearly useless. My options were play selfishly or help the melee martial get into combat so he could do his best damage.

You and I have already gone back and forth on this. You should at least understand why we cast fly on a martial character built for using GWM. The guy wanted to play a raging fighter with a greatsword. What am I supposed to do as a DM? Tell him not to play his concept because he'll be stuck on the ground all the time requiring a fly spell? We try to work as a group as much as possible. It just isn't smart to leave your martials on the ground while you cast other stuff. Even the paladin was useless without a fly spell. We needed to get them into action. Bless is too good not to cast on as many people as possible. You know this.

I'm not sure who you play with the majority of the time. I play with real life friends. It's extremely unfair due to the way 5E is designed (concentration, limited magic items, limited feats) to not buff your friend with fly if his primary means of attacking is melee..

I play with friends, not people I treat like I don't care if they have any fun.

What you want me to say to my friend is the following, "Never choose to play a melee str-based martial ever again that can't cast fly on himself (Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster).
.

What happens when I want to play a melee martial like a barbarian or monk? If I've been telling my buddy to find his own way into battle, he's going to tell me the same thing. I play with the same group every campaign. I will feel the repercussions of doing that."

I don't treat my friends that way. Fortunately, my friends don't treat me that way either. I'm happy I don't have to deal with that attitude. This has always been a team game to our group. You don't win alone. People that try selfish play usually die a lot.

So yeah, you flat out said you have to cast fly or you will deal with repercussions. I don't know about you, but people who I consider friends would never enforce "repercussions" on me for doing something that I wanted to do rather than always buffing them. Friends don't behave that way. Extra irony for you for repeatedly implying that the rest of us don't play with "real" friends. Well, my "fake" friends seem to be more mature and less demanding or sensitive than your "real" ones, if what you say is true about how they react.

Also, between your repeated statements of telling people that they might as well never play class X if you aren't forced to buff them (and yes, you imply you're forced with statements like "I'm stuck doing it even though I don't want to"), and your repeated complaints about 5e, maybe you should stick with the edition you had fun with. Clearly 5e isn't it.
 

Ridley's Cohort

First Post
I agree with the gist of Celtavian's argument, even though we might quibble about the details.

The way I look at it is that a certain kind of fight that should be fun and memorable pushes the Party into a certain less fun path, due to the details of the mechanics. A Dragon Fight is a certain kind of fight that should be fun for all and the DM would hope would be memorable. But for a very common style of Party make up, there is an optimal tactical choice for defeating that dragon. Unfortunately that optimal tactical choice is ends up being dull. This puts both the players and the DM in a bind. How should the DM stat out the dragon? If he allows for non-optimal tactics, the party might choose optimal tactics and the fight is a boring stroll. If the players opt for non-boring tactics, they risk getting punished for refusing to play as optimizers.

This is not a genuinely new problem to D&D, but a reinvention of an old issue. Back in 1e/2e days, I called it the Boring Big Stick Fight. The basic problem is when you had the showdown with the Big Monster at the end of the adventure, the only PCs who could reliably damage the main foe were the one or two guys with the biggest plus weapons. Due the mechanics of 1e/2e DR, SR, saves, and resistances (which you might not know anything about because you have never fought this exact monster before) the other party members might literally do zero damage round after round after round. Therefore they were relegated to a support role of buffing, healing the big hitters, and sometime keeping mooks away. Now the first couple times we met this tactical situation, it was a somewhat interesting puzzle to solve. But the fourth time? Yawn.

It seems that 5e has created a new variant of this same problem, that a certain category of fights are dull because the optimal tactics are both boring and obvious once you have figured them out. Obviously there are ways to mitigate the issue, like drop Boots of Flying into the loot; but that is an implicit admission that Celtavian's point is correct.

The general idea of the concentration restriction seems like a great thing to me. But it may be too all or nothing and too inflexible for making the game be as fun as possible.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
First, we're not geeks. Never really were.

Doesn't mean you're immune to the "Geek Social Fallacies," like doing things you don't want to do because a friend has made it your job to support their preferences.

Please stop already. Why do you all keep missing that no one demanded anything. He made a character that needs fly to get into combat. I'm his buddy. I cast it, so he can get into battle.

I find it strange this is even being debated. I have played for years. I have always played this way. Every edition from the beginning. You play as a group with your buddies. No one demands buffs. You cast them because they help everyone bring force to bear. It was never an issue until 5E with the concentration mechanic.
Why is this concept so hard for so many of you to understand? Is the miscommunication this poor? Or do you guys really ignore the melee martial on the ground and let him fend for himself why you launch all your spells in whatever manner pleases you? I don't play that way. Never have played that way.

I think the debate occurs because you call out the concentration mechanic as the problem rather than looking at the context that is making you feel like you have to use so many concentration spells. Concentration solves a LOT of problems for a LOT of tables. It limits buffs and debuffs, gives the caster something to pay attention to, gives the enemies something to target, balances casters relative to noncasters, and generally makes the game flow smoother for a lot of groups. When you say it's a problem, an eyebrow gets raised because a lot of folks find it the exact opposite - an awesome thing.

And then it turns out it's a problem for you because your buddy "made a character that needs to fly to get into combat," and it turns out that for a lot of people at a lot of tables, the very idea of a character that needs to fly to get into combat is itself a bizarre concept, and additionally the idea that the player of such a character would basically call dibs on one of your character's resources so that he doesn't have to be flexible seems like an over-reach. He's basically playing your character in part as well, dedicating more than one character's resources toward playing his character the way he wants to play it.

I'd shoot the melee members of the party into the sky if it was a better use of my 3rd-level spell slot than other stuff I could do (like, say, bring down the flyer with a Hypnotic Pattern!), and in certain circumstances it might be (like when fighting something with Legendary Resistance), but whatever my decision, it's not up to the melee members of my party to call dibs on my magic. That's one of the decision points you face when being a melee monster - did I remember to pack a net? Do I have something to do at range? It's my character, not theirs. They get to choose their strengths and weaknesses, and so do I.

In 3E if an opponent cast fickle winds and my buddy is an archer, I dispel it. He doesn't demand it. It allows him to have fun playing his concept and he doesn't have the means to do it himself. If one my friends falls in battle or is seriously hurt, I heal him. Do you seriously not do this? That is what boggles my mind if these people around the table are your friends.

You want to talk about mind-boggling is this whole conversation that makes it seem like some selfish buddy is demanding the buffs or healing. It should be self-evident when playing with a friend that you will do what needs to be done so you can all have fun WITHOUT BEING ASKED. Do you really not do this when playing with your friends?

The difference is that the player of the archer or the wounded character don't require that other characters serve their characters. Maybe the wounded character needs to bring some friggin' healing potions next time and not eat up all of the healer's spell slots and go on the defensive for a round or two. Maybe the archer needs to be okay with not being an archer for a few rounds. I'm not going to tell my friends that they have to play their characters in a way that lines up with what I want my character to do.

My groups have always played flexible characters, at least a little bit, who aren't reduced to incompetence by min/maxing to the nth degree and hitting an area they're min-ed in. They're able to do things that they aren't the best at for a few rounds if the combat goes that way, and it is actually part of the fun.

For instance, my gnome wild mage, his main contribution is action-denial shenanigans. But sometimes things are immune to that, and he does stuff he's not as good at, like damage. When he does that, other party members - like the high-damage ranger or dragon sorcerer - get to shine, because they are damage-focused. The party has two-and-a-half melee machines, but flying them isn't my job or the dragon sorcerer's job. Sometimes they'll just have to use javelins while we firebolt and polymorph.

At most of my tables, your melee machine would just sometimes not be that effective. That's a choice they make by being a melee machine. They should be fine with that compromise - sometimes, they will be crazy effective. You making a greatsword fighter isn't a requirement for me to be your chauffeur. Sometimes, you will suck. Sometimes, we all will suck. This is a game, suck is inevitable.
 

spinozajack

Banned
Banned
When that selfish paladin looks around the next party and realizes nobody wanted to play a wizard because they turn into servants, he'll just have to hire a henchman to be his personal buffer.

5th ed in that case is more like "Warriors and Caddies" as opposed to "Casters and Caddies".

As a wizard, I would only on rare or extreme circumstances cast Fly on the fighter. If he doesn't have a bow or some throwing axes or hammers handy, that's too bad. If you want to fly, you should be casting it on yourself using your own spell slot and concentration. Fighters can easily become Eldritch Knights if they want to fly or haste themselves, and don't even need much intelligence at all to do that.
 

spinozajack

Banned
Banned
It seems that 5e has created a new variant of this same problem, that a certain category of fights are dull because the optimal tactics are both boring and obvious once you have figured them out. Obviously there are ways to mitigate the issue, like drop Boots of Flying into the loot; but that is an implicit admission that Celtavian's point is correct.

In Skyrim (as in D&D) a big part of being able to kill Dragons is keeping them on the ground where you can hit them in melee range. Or being able to fly yourself. But those are obvious things that you should be prepared for. I would cast Fly on the fighter to be able to get up to the dragon and fight it in melee range, instead of flying myself (if I was a wizard), because that would still be pretty cool. I don't reserve all my spells to buff myself all the time, and some of the best uses for spells is casting them on the fighter.

If you really want two Flys going on, do Twinned Spell as a sorcerer, and at level 14 you can even fly without a spell if you pick the draconic or favored soul subclasses. Then you can use your twinned Fly to make two PCs fly, for a total of three. Now that's a good use for your concentration slot, that will do the party a lot of good. Even if the fighter is already an Eldritch Knight, he may be better off with a different spell like blur or haste than Fly, because even if he does get hit and fails his concentration save, at least he won't fall. Although falling from Fly is already "feather fall"-esque, isn't it?

Although EKs only cast 3rd level wizard spells at level 13, which is pretty deep into the game already. One should definitely invest in some ranged attack options.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Personally, what I feel needs to be fixed isn't the concentration mechanic, but the dragon's fly speed. It should be doubled at least (The fastest a dragon can fly with a dash action is 160ft in 6 seconds, which is 18mph) Only a fracking moron should be taking up combat against a dragon in the open battlefield where it can strafe.
 

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