D&D 5E 5th Edition Intelligence

[Caffe Nightcap]

Those who feel that someone should be able to dump INT...not just to "normal" levels...but truly as a very low stat dump, and don't understand how the player acting as if this shouldn't have in game consequences or requirements is "wrong", are actively engaging in, and providing a real life example of, dumping the INT stat.

If a player dumped CON would you let her have the survival of a high CON character?
If a player dumped STR would you let her add damage to her melee attacks, break her own chains, or lift the portcullis?
If a player dumped CHA would you let her say her character is of flawless beauty AND let her RP out the most eloquent and charming seduction of the King's messenger?

You can argue that some of the above examples are bounded by dice rolls...but that would just be abusing game mechanics to justify you letting a character with the intellect of an onion engage in sharp witted banter with a genius Wizard, or a learned scholar. You would just be justifying your ignoring a very important part of the game not covered by the rules...representation of the character as depicted by the stats that the player decided upon. You allow a player an advantage for setting a stat high, why are you so scared to give them the disadvantage that they chose in dumping a stat? At the very least, you would be ignoring that a Wizard isn't allowed this luxury...if they dumped STR, you wouldn't let the player say that they pushed their way through the rioting crowd easily...you wouldn't let the player say that they bend the bars of the cell because they say they do...you would know that the character, knowing that they are weak, wouldn't even try. Yet the player, who dumped their characters INT down to 6, gets to say that their mental midget character comes up with a brilliant plan involving timing of guard shifts, intuiting the meaning of the scraps of ancient lore the group found, or is able to otherwise act as if she was at least as smart as the player?

Quit being such a horrid game master...or such a manipulative player.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Those who feel that someone should be able to dump INT...not just to "normal" levels...but truly as a very low stat dump, and don't understand how the player acting as if this shouldn't have in game consequences or requirements is "wrong", are actively engaging in, and providing a real life example of, dumping the INT stat.

If a player dumped CON would you let her have the survival of a high CON character?
If a player dumped STR would you let her add damage to her melee attacks, break her own chains, or lift the portcullis?
If a player dumped CHA would you let her say her character is of flawless beauty AND let her RP out the most eloquent and charming seduction of the King's messenger?

You can argue that some of the above examples are bounded by dice rolls...but that would just be abusing game mechanics to justify you letting a character with the intellect of an onion engage in sharp witted banter with a genius Wizard, or a learned scholar. You would just be justifying your ignoring a very important part of the game not covered by the rules...representation of the character as depicted by the stats that the player decided upon. You allow a player an advantage for setting a stat high, why are you so scared to give them the disadvantage that they chose in dumping a stat? At the very least, you would be ignoring that a Wizard isn't allowed this luxury...if they dumped STR, you wouldn't let the player say that they pushed their way through the rioting crowd easily...you wouldn't let the player say that they bend the bars of the cell because they say they do...you would know that the character, knowing that they are weak, wouldn't even try. Yet the player, who dumped their characters INT down to 6, gets to say that their mental midget character comes up with a brilliant plan involving timing of guard shifts, intuiting the meaning of the scraps of ancient lore the group found, or is able to otherwise act as if she was at least as smart as the player?

Quit being such a horrid game master...or such a manipulative player.

I always laugh because if I'm really strong and good with a sword in real life playing a str 8 wizard isn't helped but if I'm a good salesman and a little brilliant but play a int 8 and cha 8 character I can be my way through it

 

[Uchawi]

I miss 4E primary and secondary ability scores for classes, in addition to grouping fortitude (str, con), reflex (int, dex), or will (wis, cha). It was not perfect, but maybe we will be lucky if some derivative 5E game is developed if they ever release something equivalent to a 5E OGL.

 

[Dausuul]

So correct me if I'm wrong here, but the only uses I can find for intelligence are wizard spell saves, knowledge checks, and avoiding death by illithid. That seems pretty limited to me when compared to other stats. I've noticed that the players at my group all tend to completely tank their int scores because there's just no point in having any.

Do you guys think intelligence is okay as is, with so few uses? Has Wizards said anything about what their design goals were for intelligence?

As it stands, Intelligence is a "primary or nothing" stat. Either you're a wizard and max it out, or you put in the bare minimum that you/your DM feels is required to let your character have smart ideas.

IMO, a large part of the problem is that Wizards put in the Investigation skill to cover "active searching," but most of the scenarios where you'd expect it to come up call for Perception checks instead. If all active searching were Investigation, with Perception being limited to detecting stealthy foes and noticing things passively, Int would get more love.

Do note that if your campaign involves a lot of planar travel, the importance of Int will shoot up, since it determines your movement in the Astral Plane.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Pardon my hyperbole, but the point was that players always have to pick a weakest stat, and the structure of the rules are pushing players to make INT that stat (also STR, probably both). You can point the finger at the player for being a metagaming min-maxer, but if the game was designed better, the min-max choice wouldn't be so obvious.

The fact is, INT is the least important stat in the combat tree (even Eldritch Knights can dump it), barely relevant in the social tree, and shares the spotlight with many other stats in exploration. 5th ed might have better design than any previous edition of DnD, but I don't think it's wrong to point out where it could have done better.

I disagree. The structure of the rules doesn't push me to assign stats in any way. I have an idea of the type of character I want to play, how I envision him or her (which includes personality, appearance, etc), and then set my stats appropriately. I design my PCs how I envision them, not based on metagaming knowledge or modifiers. There could be ZERO mechanical modifiers that come up in the game, but that won't change me from putting a decent score in INT if I want to play a character that's pretty smart. That's what a role-playing game means.

 

[Eric V]

Pardon my hyperbole, but the point was that players always have to pick a weakest stat, and the structure of the rules are pushing players to make INT that stat (also STR, probably both). You can point the finger at the player for being a metagaming min-maxer, but if the game was designed better, the min-max choice wouldn't be so obvious.

The fact is, INT is the least important stat in the combat tree (even Eldritch Knights can dump it), barely relevant in the social tree, and shares the spotlight with many other stats in exploration. 5th ed might have better design than any previous edition of DnD, but I don't think it's wrong to point out where it could have done better.

Some great points. I offer another perspective on "they could have done better." Maybe they did. Because the designers know that INT is the stat most "made up for" by the actual player playing the toon, they could afford to make it be the dump stat extraordinaire.

Feature, not a bug!

 

[Eric V]

Players with an int of 11 are allowed to play PCs of Int 19 or even 20. How do they do it?

DM: It's the wizard's turn next.
Player: My character does something clever
DM: Okay, what exactly are you going to do?
Player: I don't know. But my character does.
DM: Okay. *rolls some dice* It worked. Something incomprehensible happens.
DM: Rogue, you're next.
Rogue: I steal the wizard's idea. *rolls dice*
DM: Okay, you succeeded.
Rogue: I have this great idea.
DM: What is it?
Rogue: I don't know, but it's brilliant.
Wizard: Hey! That was my idea!

It doesn't really work, does it?

I love this!

All the DMs who wouldn't even allow a player with a low int character to have a brilliant plan, I hope you allow* for the above scenario to happen as you should; it's just the same principle but applied to high INT instead of low.


In my own games, for CHA, to encourage even mid-to-low CHA to talk, I will provide advantage on the check if the player does a good job. No reason that couldn't apply to INT checks as well.
*Don't bother answering, I know you don't.

 

[MG.0]

Characters in my games roll their stats. No one chooses their genes.

You can bet any fighter type that has super low intelligence is going to be a prime target for any NPC illusionist who can cast the 2nd level spell Phantasmal Force. They enjoy watching big fighter types stroll off of cliffs or directly into lava.

 

[Gimul]

I love this!

All the DMs who wouldn't even allow a player with a low int character to have a brilliant plan, I hope you allow* for the above scenario to happen as you should; it's just the same principle but applied to high INT instead of low.


In my own games, for CHA, to encourage even mid-to-low CHA to talk, I will provide advantage on the check if the player does a good job. No reason that couldn't apply to INT checks as well.
*Don't bother answering, I know you don't. [emoji14]

Actually, if a player of any Int is in such a situation; I often request Int checks (with any applicable proficiency) and give them information or logical insight on a level commiserate with their roll. This typically happens during player discussions/brainstorming sessions. Sorry to disappoint you.

 

[Eric V]

So you're the one with the 20 INT then?