D&D 4E A 4E Combat Encounter - Round by Round Descritpion

[Bayonet_Chris]

Kids

I like the way you had the Kobolds eating a kid. Even a bleeding heart liberal would have a hard time not killing a kid eater. (Bloody Hippies.)

Gets rid of the Roleplay dilemas of alignment.

You can derail a campaign if you're not too careful. As someone who has small children, there is no better way to put my character on a crusade of kobold genocide than something like this.

 

[D'karr]

Are you sure about that?

The divine challenge mark is clear that the old mark is lost if you mark someone else.

In the case of the fighters mark it's not a power just an ability to mark when he attacks. By a strict reading of the rule he could do it when he takes immediate attacks and opportunity attacks. I of course can be totally mistaken.

The part of the information on the Fighter's sheet that is important about this is "new mark supersedes and old one."

When a fighter marks a new target the is using a new mark. This mark supersedes the old one to his previous target.

 

[Delgar]

I believe the new mark superceding an old mark is also written in the paladin's entry and is talking about if someone else marks the opponent the new mark takes it's place. Again I could be wrong but I think most of the evidence points to the fighter being able to mark multiple foes.

The part of the information on the Fighter's sheet that is important about this is "new mark supersedes and old one."

When a fighter marks a new target the is using a new mark. This mark supersedes the old one to his previous target.

 

[Knight Otu]

All that tells you is that Thicket of Blades might be a power that allows you to mark more than one opponent. We don't know for sure.

It fits quite well with what the Combat Challenge ability actually says, though.

when you attack you mark the enemy, giving a -2 to attack targets other than you, one mark per enemy, new mark supersedes old one)

The first portion tells us when the fighter marks. The second and third portion tells us what happens when a marked creature becomes marked again (we know that because the paladin divine challenge uses basically the same wording, just with a few more words). No portion tells us to remove a mark from one creature when we mark a different creature, unlike the divine challenge, which explicitly does state so. Given that the wording is pretty much the same otherwise, I see no reason to discount the differences.

 

[Delgar]

I don't call that derailing the game, I call that the DM tossing the ball in the players court and they run with it. Those are the kind of games I love playing in. IF the players want to destroy all the kobolds in the world who am I to stop them. Of course these could just be a small tribe of feral kobolds.

You can derail a campaign if you're not too careful. As someone who has small children, there is no better way to put my character on a crusade of kobold genocide than something like this.

 

[D'karr]

I believe the new mark superceding an old mark is also written in the paladin's entry and is talking about if someone else marks the opponent the new mark takes it's place. Again I could be wrong but I think most of the evidence points to the fighter being able to mark multiple foes.

The problem is that the description for both stipulate only one mark per enemy, which automatically takes care of someone marking a target you've already marked. But if that is the case, then why do I need to know that a "new mark supersedes an old one?"

So either one part of the description, for each of the powers, is irrelevant and not needed, or it means that both parts of the description are needed so that whenever I start a new mark the old one is superseded. But the power of the divine challenge specifically tells you that the mark from divine challenge does not go away if I use a different power to mark another target.

A mark is a general rule. The Divine Challenge makes exceptions to that.

 

[D'karr]

No portion tells us to remove a mark from one creature when we mark a different creature, unlike the divine challenge, which explicitly does state so. Given that the wording is pretty much the same otherwise, I see no reason to discount the differences.

You are reading it backwards. Marking is stipulated by a general rule. The Divine Challenge provides one of the exceptions.

 

[Delgar]

No only one mark per enemy tells you how many marks a target can have on them. The new mark superceding the old mark tells you that the new mark takes the place of the old mark. Without that rule you don't know which mark wins. Anyway, thats the way that I read and understand the way the fighters mark works.

The problem is that the description for both stipulate only one mark per enemy, which automatically takes care of someone marking a target you've already marked. But if that is the case, then why do I need to know that a "new mark supersedes an old one?"

So either one part of the description, for each of the powers, is irrelevant and not needed, or it means that both parts of the description are needed so that whenever I start a new mark the old one is superseded. But the power of the divine challenge specifically tells you that the mark from divine challenge does not go away if I use a different power to mark another target.

A mark is a general rule. The Divine Challenge makes exceptions to that.

 

[Knight Otu]

But if that is the case, then why do I need to know that a "new mark supersedes an old one?"

Because marks might have also been resilient, resulting in "old mark suoersedes a new one," based on initiative count ("faster mark supersedes a slower one"), by class ("paladin mark supersedes fighter mark"), etc, while still being true to the "one mark per enemy" description. If it weren't part of the one mark per enemy rule, it would be redundant with the portion that tells us that a paladin can only mark one enemy with that power.

But the power of the divine challenge specifically tells you that the mark from divine challenge does not go away if I use a different power to mark another target.

Sure. Because it told you that marks made with further uses of that power do remove older marks made with that power.
Also, do note that the fighter ability to mark is not a power - it's a class feature.

A mark is a general rule. The Divine Challenge makes exceptions to that.

Then why use the Divine Challenge rules as the default as you did below? It's what I've been saying - there are default rules to marking, and both the Fighter and the Paladin add their own things to that, and do it differently. The paladin marks through powers. The Fighter marks through every attack.

The Divine Challenge from the paladin has the most comprehensive explanation on marking. If you mark with the same power, the old marked opponent is no longer marked. If you use different powers to mark, you may mark multiple opponents. Only one mark per opponent.

 

[D'karr]

Then why use the Divine Challenge rules as the default as you did below? It's what I've been saying - there are default rules to marking, and both the Fighter and the Paladin add their own things to that, and do it differently. The paladin marks through powers. The Fighter marks through every attack.

I'm not using it as the default. I'm showing that the Divine Challenge stipulates things that are different (Exceptions) than the way a mark (General) works.

I see what your argument is and that could be an interpretation.

I could be wrong, but without the full rules or more information from WotC I'll stick to what we used at DDXP, which was as I have explained.