D&D 5E A brief rant about Rime of the Frost Maiden, farming, logistics, and ecology

[Don Durito]

Isn't this the same book that has 'three kobolds in a trenchcoat'? It sounds like a cartoonish tone is somewhat deliberate.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Nothing is perfect, WOTC products have flaws like everything else.

It's just one thing to say "I have a problem with this, how do I fix it" and constantly, repeatedly, complaining and asserting that everything they produce is naughty word. I don't like sushi*, but I don't go on sushi lover's web sites and complain about how raw fish is the worst thing in the world.

Have problems? Great. Let's talk about possible solutions, even if we don't all agree with what that solution should be. Still not satisfied? I don't mean to be rude but don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. Personally I love leftse (a Norwegian potato pancake) and my wife thinks it's disgusting (although she is quite fond of kringla so I guess I'll keep her).

Case in point


It's, what a paragraph or so of fluff that maybe should have been ever-so-slightly reworded? Less than 1% of the publication? That's what we've been arguing about for more than 160 posts?

You can't please everyone. No product is perfect. Either accept that, don't ever spend money on a published module or go buy something else. Well, that and I'm hungry for kringla now.

*which in the US is usually shashimi with colored horse radish

Meh, might not matter to you, but the flaw in the premise immediately jumps out at me, and I'd rather the premise of the module not start out that way, even if it ultimately doesn't matter. I mean, the premise is the selling point for some. Others might just buy any module, and others might look at it for the set pieces, and others because they don't want to create their own. Lots of reasons to buy, and it seems silly to start with a premise that's going to make a section of the market pause.

Now, for me, what I'm hearing is that they didn't do much more with the survival part of the game, so that's another part of the premise that is unfulfilled for me, and I was interested in a dark fantasy theme with eldritch horrors possibly tossed in and that dealt heavily with survival exploration. Now, I need to go through a copy carefully and see if I like the set pieces, because it looks like I have to alter the premise and gut the survival aspects and do those myself. I might just take the bits I liked -- horror tropes with winter survival exploration -- and do my own thing, honestly. Save the money and do about as much work.

And, that's fine. WotC doesn't need to cater to me. It doesn't make them the bad guy.

 

[Eltab]

Isn't this the same book that has 'three kobolds in a trenchcoat'? It sounds like a cartoonish tone is somewhat deliberate.

I think WotC working on Frostmaiden realized something like what Mel Gibson & crew realized while creating Passion of the Christ: We could craft an unrelenting continuous scene that will drive the audience screaming out of the room because they cannot take it ... or we can break it up / provide some relief with a few instances of compassion (Mel) or humor (WotC). They both chose to include some lighter moments.

 

[Eltab]

And to the main subject:
I like to over-complicate my DM'ing so I might go get average daily temperature charts for towns north of the Arctic Circle, extend the autumn temperature drop rate for another season, and start this campaign with "Spring never came and summer was no better. All stocks and supplies are failing in the face of never-ending Winter. People are getting desperate as all life in Icewind Dale seems threatened." As time goes by in the campaign, the base temperature gets colder and the CON checks get higher.

 

[Guest User]

I think after 50 years the game publishers would have finally learned how to assemble a module that’s runnable and sensible

The adventures are not where WotC has focused their attention. Which is a shame, and a wasted opportunity.

Tyranny of Dragons was made for the release of the 5e system, it was going to be the premiere module for the 5e system and WotC farmed it out to Kobold Press!?

Mearls and Crawford do not write adventures. WotC has relied on freelancers to write the adventures with limited Full time staff oversight. At least that is what it seems like.

ToA and Rime both got some attention from Chris Perkins and it shows.
Both modules also have a more limited scope, so they can fulfill on their promises.

So outside of Chris Perkins, whom, (sometimes), oversees a good module, I don't think the module writing bench at WotC is deep at all.

 

[TheSword]

Why, then, the pushback if you don't care if winter lasts two years or if it could be something else? I haven't seen you, or anyone, actually make an argument as to why the two year winter ups the stakes, or makes things better, or has some deeper and more important meaning. It's just a reflexive argument that this detail shouldn't matter.

D&D has always been derivative and tapped into the zeitgeist. Whether you like Game of Thrones or not, one of its central premises is that winters can last several years. This module explores what that would drive people to and gives a number of icy encounters that could potentially be very exciting/scary. I’m reminded of this quote...

“Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods” - Old Nan.

This pretty much sums up what the writers are trying to recreate in RPG form, changed to be high fantasy and FR. You can argue that it doesn’t make sense (as people have here) but then at the same time GOT was the most popular and spectacular fantasy phenomena of this century. WOC is tapping into that. That’s why two years winter is cool and a bit scary.

No insults were intended to you personally, though you were sharing a platform with a few people that don’t mince words and are pretty insultingly dismissive of a range of products which are clearly quality industry leading. I think it’s cool that you want to revise the adventure to be more scientifically accurate for the sake of your players to take into account the fact that you feel the limited daylight wouldn’t sustain any plant life.

Can you just agree that for a lot of people that is outside the scope of the adventure? That if asked by my players how plants survived (which is really the whole premise of the thread leading to the collapse), I would say the wan light for a few hours a day is allowing the plants to cling to life, but it’s clear that they can’t last and IWD will soon be a frozen memory... This is enough for most people that don’t have or expect the level of scientific accuracy in a story that you’re demanding.

I love the ‘running the...’ threads. They are a great resources. Though let’s be clear this isn’t a ‘running IWD thread’. It’s a ‘let’s rant about IWD thread’ that turned into a ‘let’s trash WOC’ thread and say how they dropped the ball and can’t write a decent adventure. A statement that’s so patently ludicrous it beggars belief considering that adventures have been over half of what they’ve released so far, catapulting D&D to unheard of popularity and success.

 

[Ovinomancer]

D&D has always been derivative and tapped into the zeitgeist. Whether you like Game of Thrones or not, one of its central premises is that winters can last several years. This module explores what that would drive people to and gives a number of icy encounters that could potentially be very exciting/scary. I’m reminded of this quote...

“Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods” - Old Nan.

This pretty much sums up what the writers are trying to recreate in RPG form, changed to be high fantasy and FR. You can argue that it doesn’t make sense (as people have here) but then at the same time GOT was the most popular and spectacular fantasy phenomena of this century. WOC is tapping into that. That’s why two years winter is cool and a bit scary.

This is a bit meaningless. D&D isn't GoT, and GoT isn't D&D. That both are popular in different markets doesn't make them alike. Adding an argument ad populum (it's popular so it's right), isn't a good response. WHY is GoT popular? It's not for years long winters, so that's not why this module did the thing.

No insults were intended to you personally, though you were sharing a platform with a few people that don’t mince words and are pretty insultingly dismissive of a range of products which are clearly quality industry leading. I think it’s cool that you want to revise the adventure to be more scientifically accurate for the sake of your players to take into account the fact that you feel the limited daylight wouldn’t sustain any plant life.

Nope. I'd like an explanation that makes 2+ years of dark and winter cold make sense, but it doesn't have to have a darned thing to do with science or the real world. I play pretend elf games because I like pretend elf games, and I'm not super keen on being scientifically accurate. However, when a module describes the sun not rising above the horizon, and also says that plants and animals need sunlight to survive, then I'd like to hear how they've already survived two years of not getting any. They set that up, not me.

Can you just agree that for a lot of people that is outside the scope of the adventure? That if asked by my players how plants survived (which is really the whole premise of the thread leading to the collapse), I would say the wan light for a few hours a day is allowing the plants to cling to life, but it’s clear that they can’t last and IWD will soon be a frozen memory... This is enough for most people that don’t have or expect the level of scientific accuracy in a story that you’re demanding.

Again, you're strawmanning me, and I'd appreciate you stop inventing my arguments. I've been clear, a few times, that I'd be happy with an attempt to explain it, but none exist. I don't need a treatise, or a scientific argument, I'd like to have a reason why things that need light and can't get by on a few hours of twilight a day have managed to do so for more than two years. They set up this premise, I didn't, and expecting it to hang in a bit is good.

And, I'm perfectly fine that you might not care. But, by not caring, you've conceded that you wouldn't care if there was an explanation. You're not defending more than two years of winter and dark as necessary to any part of the adventure, or haven't yet. So, sure, you don't care -- why are you arguing for it, then?

I love the ‘running the...’ threads. They are a great resources. Though let’s be clear this isn’t a ‘running IWD thread’. It’s a ‘let’s rant about IWD thread’ that turned into a ‘let’s trash WOC’ thread and say how they dropped the ball and can’t write a decent adventure. A statement that’s so patently ludicrous it beggars belief considering that adventures have been over half of what they’ve released so far, catapulting D&D to unheard of popularity and success.

Yeah, someone on the internet had a problem that they both spoke about and provided a solution for, but it needs to be shown up because it used the word "rant" instead of "help me figure this out." Color me skeptical that this thread would have gone much differently if it had a thread title more acceptable to you.

And, you're confusing to separate arguments here -- the issue with the premise of the adventure and people who want to bash on WotC. These things are correlated, yes, but one is not necessary to the other.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I think after 50 years the game publishers would have finally learned how to assemble a module that’s runnable and sensible. The fact that almost every one has major issues is a sad testament to how bad at it they are.

Is writing an adventure really that hard? If the pros can’t do it what hope is there for us?

Yeah, I'd say it's hard. I've been published before, but not in the game industry. I worked a project for awhile that involved publishing technical guides for first responders so that they could more effectively spend federal grant dollars. It was explaining technical things at an 8th grade reading level and to laymen. That's hard, but what was harder was the review process. We had a great one, with 5 levels of draft and review prior to a final review board prior to approval for print. And, despite this, errors and oversights happened way more often that you'd think they would, given dedicated professionals at all levels -- engineers, tech writers, editors, and review boards. When you work to a deadline, stuff slips through, and an adventure is really an very complicated set of things that doesn't have a single definable formula.

So, yeah, it's hard, and I don't particularly blame WotC for the things that slip through. And, while I'm still in the shotgun pattern, I'm not in the center of the target audience. So, they aren't writing for me, but for a nearby group of fans. And that's going to reduce the product utility for me in addition to whatever errors or oversights occur, and that's fine.

Honestly, given this thread, it's entirely possible the writer thought the two years of winter was cool and just didn't think it through, either through lack of knowledge or need to spend time on other, more important things. Happens.

 

[pukunui]

Honestly, given this thread, it's entirely possible the writer thought the two years of winter was cool and just didn't think it through, either through lack of knowledge or need to spend time on other, more important things. Happens.

Except that they received at least one set of playtest feedback pointing out to them that it was implausible, and yet they chose to ignore that feedback.

(I happen to know that there are times where they have changed course due to playtest feedback - for instance, TOA was originally going to start with the PCs going to Chult by boat, but I guess enough of us told them that it didn't make sense given the urgency of the death curse that they changed it so that the PCs get teleported there instead.)

 

[TheSword]

@Ovinomancer at this point we’re going round in circles. You’re not interested in alternative opinions, just ones that reinforce your own. A long list of explanations have been provided, you’re not interested in that either. When someone is that entrenched, there’s no where else to go.

Not appreciating the impact other fantasy media has on recruitment into D&D is very short sighted. It is no coincidence that D&D exploded in popularity at the same time Daenerys’ dragons created the largest fantasy TV franchise to date. It’s also no coincidence that Avernus draws heavily on Mad Max Fury Road. You say GOT is irrelevant to D&D ok. I find the quote I posted evocative and inspiring... that’s enough for me.

Anyway it sounds like you have your solutions, so good luck with that.