D&D 5E A brief rant about Rime of the Frost Maiden, farming, logistics, and ecology

[doctorbadwolf]

I’ve never backpedalled, and I’m certainly not now.

Nothing I’ve said contradicts anything else I’ve said.

Nice try, though.

And Europe literally has experienced a winter that lasted all the way through to the next winter, which...is literally 2 years of winter.

 

[Ovinomancer]

And Europe literally has experienced a winter that lasted all the way through to the next winter, which...is literally 2 years of winter.

Well, no, not literally in a couple of senses. Firstly, had winter actually persisted from 1 winter season through spring, summer, fall, and then the next winter, that's not two years, although it would be more than one, so literally not two years.

Secondly, the "Year without Summer" wasn't a yearlong (or 1 1/4 year long) winter, it was a year that had a late spring, a much cooler than average summer, and an early fall and winter season. This caused many crops to fail and massive famine and disruption even though a total crop failure did not occur. Had there been literally a year-long (or 1 and 1/4 year long) winter, the devastation and death would have been near extinction level for most of the Northern Hemisphere. So, not literally winter for even one year, much less two.

 

[TheSword]

That is an extremely poor argument. I guess it must be different for you, but for me if a story doesn't make internally consistent logical sense than it is a bad story, regardless of whether it is a "mere" magical Fantasy story or not. The presence of magic in a story does not mean that logic can be thrown out the window for all of the non-magical elements.

As far as Fantasy settings go, I like all of the non-magical elements to be as firmly grounded in real-life as possible. This is why I very much dislike places where magic is such a common mundanity that children are running around casting cantrips (Halruua, I am squinting disapprovingly squarely at you.)

Let me expand the argument as I think maybe be you’ve taken it at face value.

“who cares, it’s a story ... and a story shouldn’t spend time worrying about details that a./ don’t improve the story, b./ don’t provide opportunities for adventure.”

The forgotten realms has a weave of magic that affects multiple creatures and the there’s the magic that’s created this winter. So magic can be used to explain why people are still alive. The flora and fauna of the realms can be totally different to what we’d expect to find in medieval England. If people can’t accept in a story like Game Of Thrones (that has dragons and warlocks) that winter can last 7 years, then those people should stop reading fantasy stories and stick to historical fiction.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Well, no, not literally in a couple of senses. Firstly, had winter actually persisted from 1 winter season through spring, summer, fall, and then the next winter, that's not two years, although it would be more than one, so literally not two years.

Secondly, the "Year without Summer" wasn't a yearlong (or 1 1/4 year long) winter, it was a year that had a late spring, a much cooler than average summer, and an early fall and winter season. This caused many crops to fail and massive famine and disruption even though a total crop failure did not occur. Had there been literally a year-long (or 1 and 1/4 year long) winter, the devastation and death would have been near extinction level for most of the Northern Hemisphere. So, not literally winter for even one year, much less two.

This is the same thing the adventure means.

 

[GMMichael]

That is an extremely poor argument. I guess it must be different for you, but for me if a story doesn't make internally consistent logical sense than it is a bad story, regardless of whether it is a "mere" magical Fantasy story or not. The presence of magic in a story does not mean that logic can be thrown out the window for all of the non-magical elements.

Poor argument. Great excuse! If Mr. Spock were still with us, he'd point out that every story doesn't make internally consistent logical sense; that's why they're stories. Which is to say: you either get the truth, or you get a story. How much fiction you like in your story is purely a matter of preference.

I'd wager that the combined sum of the magical and fantastic elements in Rime heavily outweigh the inconsistency of a society that persists through an extended winter. And folks that blow it off as a fluke. Those people are real, by the way. They're called Minnesotans.

 

[Jd Smith1]

Kudos to the OP!

 

[Flamestrike]

Bryn Shander suffers, like most D&D / Fantasy cities and towns, of being a town in the middle of wilderness, when it should be surrounded by farms ( A town of 1,200 will need an agricultural hinterland of 12,000 or so ).

You're forgetting one important thing. Magic.

The Module states that for every 100 inhabitants of Ten Towns there is a Spellcaster capable of casting 3rd level spells (at least 2 spells per day) such as NPC Priests, Mages and Druids.

Leaving aside any creative uses of spellcasting to help with hunting and survival (talking to/ locating animals, druidcraft cantrip, bonfire cantrip etc etc) there are some obvious solutions:

• Create Food and Water is a 3rd level Paladin and Cleric spell and it feeds 15 people. It's a 3rd level spell. Presuming roughly 1/3 of the Spellcasters in town are Priests, that's enough food for 50/500 people in the town right there.
• Goodberry is a 1st level Druid and Ranger spell, it produces 10 berries, with each berry capable of sustaining a humanoid for 24 hours. Presuming just 2 Druid NPC spellcasters for every 5 spell casters/ 500 people, with 14 combined slots per long rest, and that's enough food for 140/500 people.

Of the 1 spellcasters per 100 people, if 2/5 of them ae Druids and 1/3 Priests (and the remaining are Mages) and you can feed nearly half of the population with spellcasting alone.

Also:

Create Water is a 1st level Ceric and Druid spell (however water shouldn't be a problem with all the snow around)

Purify food and Drink is a 1st level spell for Clerics and Druids, and it cleanses all food in a 5' radius sphere of all poisons and diseases. This would enable putrefying or poisonous foodstuffs to be cleansed and be able to be eaten (and it would be easy to store excess food in the freezing weather by simply putting it in a shed outside, where it freezes).

Druids capable of casting 3rd level spells can cast Plant Growth, turning a field of even the most meagre plants into lush overgrown crops.

In addition it also does this:

If you cast this spell over 8 hours, you enrich the land. All plants in a half-mile radius centered on a point within range become enriched for 1 year. The plants yield twice the normal amount of food when harvested.

So yeah. Magic.

It's likely that a substantial number of people in town are turning to Druids and the Churches for salvation in these dark times, and are getting crops blessed, and surviving on Goodberries and food created by Create Food and Water, supplementing any stored/ frozen meats like seal whale, axe beak, dog, walrus, reindeer and crag cat that they have left (which is likely running out).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You're forgetting one important thing. Magic.

The Module states that for every 100 inhabitants of Ten Towns there is a Spellcaster capable of casting 3rd level spells (at least 2 spells per day) such as NPC Priests, Mages and Druids.

Leaving aside any creative uses of spellcasting to help with hunting and survival (talking to/ locating animals, druidcraft cantrip, bonfire cantrip etc etc) there are some obvious solutions:

• Create Food and Water is a 3rd level Paladin and Cleric spell and it feeds 15 people. It's a 3rd level spell. Presuming roughly 1/3 of the Spellcasters in town are Priests, that's enough food for 50/500 people in the town right there.
• Goodberry is a 1st level Druid and Ranger spell, it produces 10 berries, with each berry capable of sustaining a humanoid for 24 hours. Presuming just 2 Druid NPC spellcasters for every 5 spell casters/ 500 people, with 14 combined slots per long rest, and that's enough food for 140/500 people.

Of the 1 spellcasters per 100 people, if 2/5 of them ae Druids and 1/3 Priests (and the remaining are Mages) and you can feed nearly half of the population with spellcasting alone.

Also:

Create Water is a 1st level Ceric and Druid spell (however water shouldn't be a problem with all the snow around)

Purify food and Drink is a 1st level spell for Clerics and Druids, and it cleanses all food in a 5' radius sphere of all poisons and diseases. This would enable putrefying or poisonous foodstuffs to be cleansed and be able to be eaten (and it would be easy to store excess food in the freezing weather by simply putting it in a shed outside, where it freezes).

Druids capable of casting 3rd level spells can cast Plant Growth, turning a field of even the most meagre plants into lush overgrown crops.

In addition it also does this:



So yeah. Magic.

It's likely that a substantial number of people in town are turning to Druids and the Churches for salvation in these dark times, and are getting crops blessed, and surviving on Goodberries and food created by Create Food and Water, supplementing any stored/ frozen meats like seal whale, axe beak, dog, walrus, reindeer and crag cat that they have left (which is likely running out).

Yep. If you can make crops yield more food, in an Alaska-esque climate, you can store that food for quite a long time, making 2 years with little new food but no depleted population entirely plausible.

 

[Lord Twig]

Using magic as a solution is absolutely fine. So why didn't they mention that in the book? Also, that doesn't fix the problem for all of the native plants and animals.

It seems the WotC authors forgot a very important rule in writing fiction, whether it is a novel or a game: "The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense." It's been said many different ways and is attributed to various different authors, probably because it is so true.

And the "Don't worry about it! It is just a made up story with Dragons and Wizards!" Is fine for movies or even books where you are going to sit there passively and watch the story unfold. But when you are involved in the game you are going to be making decisions based on this story.

I know the people I play with would find this weakness immediately. The logic train would be very fast. "They still hunt for food? Then the animals must be getting food from somewhere! We should follow them to see what they are doing!"

Then then, as the DM, I would have to say. "No, actually. They don't have a source of food either. So don't waste your time."

Now if this were an adventure I made up myself, they would give me a hard time about that, but would be understanding. A good natured "Guess you didn't think that one through, huh?" and then we would all start throwing around ideas on how to explain it. Maybe we would go with magic, but we would come up with something. As part of a published adventure there really is no excuse.

 

[humble minion]

At the risk of venting pointlessly, FR has always been terrible about this sort of thing and it's always driven me up the wall. Setting verisimilitude, basic economics and ecology etc. Even around the 2e/3e era, in approximately the same area of the Realms you had the Rage of Dragons, the invasion of the Shades, and the enormous war of the Purple Dragon when Azoun died, and that was only a few in-setting years on from the whole Avatar mess and the Maulagrym invasion and the Tuigan invasion etc etc etc.

If you even believed half the metaplot, there'd be only about three people left in the desolate, depeopled wasteland of north-west Faerun (and one of them would be Elminster). Where's the famine? Where's the vast depopulated districts in every city? Where's the enfeebled armies drained white by constant war against, y'know, masses of frigging dragons? Yet as soon as the metaplot needed, more population and more armies simply spring fully-formed into existence. Annoyed the hell out of me.

Mind you, D&D/FR is not on their lonesome here. I think someone once did an analysis of Privateer Press's Iron Kingdoms metaplot, and figured out that given the casualties involved, every single citizen of the kingdom of Cygnar had died four times over...