D&D 5E A brief rant about Rime of the Frost Maiden, farming, logistics, and ecology

G

Guest User

Guest
YES! Exactly! I want a mod so customized to my personal tastes that one of the core premises gets a bit more explanation!
Well since that is not going to happen, you either have to do it yourself or decide not to use the product.

I would run ToA, but I would never use the Death Plague setup as written.
I know that, and accept that.

Unless you you consider Rime to be an exigent evil that must be stopped, you are doing the equivalent of constantly saying..."but warp power CAN'T exist " to any discussion about Star Trek, even if we are talking Tribbles.

I understand you do not like the thermostat setting in Rime....great....move on dude.
Exception, noted.....what else can you contribute to the conversation?

Chaosmancer, by their own admission in another thread has never used a module.
"I've never seen an Opera, but the Magic Flute is bad one"........not exactly ironclad credentials there, alas.

robius, I empathize with, they feel burned by past WotC Adventures and are gun shy about buying another product. What is ironic, is that many of the types of advice that would have been helpful in prior modules, is actually present in Rime.
 

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robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
robius, I empathize with, they feel burned by past WotC Adventures and are gun shy about buying another product. What is ironic, is that many of the types of advice that would have been helpful in prior modules, is actually present in Rime.
Must resist pressure to buy... must... resist... :D
 


TheSword

Legend
Pointing to another bad premise because it's popular is exactly what I said it was last time -- things aren't true because their popular was. And, GoT described the winter as people don't live in the cold places anymore because they starve and die. It's not something that people go, eh, we'll get through that, it's presented as an existential crisis for the north. The mere threat of which is used to say things could be worse, do better.
Yeah, If the winters in Game of Thrones are too much to handle for peoples sense of verisimilitude then this one probably isn’t for you. Whilst popularity is not a measure of accuracy it is definitely a measure of how acceptable something is to common sensibility.

Everywhere becomes cold during a Westeros winter it isn’t limited to north of the wall. Obviously people did survive them and they are dark - the long night. With stores of food, carefully looked after cattle, and ingenuity.

You’re asking for a degree of realism that isn’t present in most fantasy games. Not that the claim that having no light kills coniferous trees and all life within two years has been referenced anywhere... it’s all based on suppositions. I have demonstrated that life can survive 3-6 months. Of course there aren’t locations on earth that have longer so it can’t be tested.
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Well since that is not going to happen, you either have to do it yourself or decide not to use the product.
Neither of which dispute the validity of the criticism. Of course I have to make that choice -- it's printed. Pointing out the issue, though, assists others in making that choice, and discussing solutions also helps others make that choice.

Plus, WotC's doing a lot of revision to products these days, so it's quite possible they might choose to release supplementary material or issue a change if people complain. I doubt a change, but a supplement's possible. We're not talking about wholesale revisions, here, but additions to the current material to help it along.
I would run ToA, but I would never use the Death Plague setup as written.
I know that, and accept that.

Unless you you consider Rime to be an exigent evil that must be stopped, you are doing the equivalent of constantly saying..."but warp power CAN'T exist " to any discussion about Star Trek, even if we are talking Tribbles.
YES!! Rime is a exigent evil that must be stopped!1 People need to know about this so they can help stop it by making purchasing decisions better informed OR having awareness that this issue may need assistance from them the text will not provide!!11! Only in this way can the evil be halted and prevented from spreading!1!!1eleven!!!

You know, I think I might just start leaning into the strawmen like this -- it's kind fun and a break from saying "I didn't say that, you made it up." Also, /sarc tags.
I understand you do not like the thermostat setting in Rime....great....move on dude.
Exception, noted.....what else can you contribute to the conversation?

Chaosmancer, by their own admission in another thread has never used a module.
"I've never seen an Opera, but the Magic Flute is bad one"........not exactly ironclad credentials there, alas.

robius, I empathize with, they feel burned by past WotC Adventures and are gun shy about buying another product. What is ironic, is that many of the types of advice that would have been helpful in prior modules, is actually present in Rime.
Ah, back to dismissal of criticism because it can't be fixed in the current product. I thought we weren't doing that? And, if you respond to me, do not point to other people's arguments as if they're representative of mine. I have used modules, and was interested in Rime, but this issue and the synopsis I've read indicates that this is, yet again, another WotC module that's trying to be too clever but fails to make it. There's some good set pieces in there, but I'm not interested in the Icewind Dales enough to buy it for those and the gazetteer section. That I've decided to not purchase this module (or pick it up on sale or second-hand) doesn't make my criticism less valid or not worth stating. You need to stop addressing criticism with arguments that try to render the ability to criticism moot. They're not valid arguments and they don't address the criticism.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Yeah, If the winters in Game of hrones are too much to handle for peoples sense of verisimilitude then this one probably isn’t for you. Whilst popular is not a measure of accuracy it is definitely a measure of how acceptable something is to common sensibility.

Everywhere becomes cold during a Westeros winter it isn’t limited to north of the wall. Obviously people did survive them and they are dark - the long night. With stores of food, carefully looked after cattle, and ingenuity.

You’re asking for a degree of realism that isn’t present in most fantasy games. Not that the claim that having no light kills coniferous trees and all life within two years has been referenced anywhere... it’s all based on suppositions. I have demonstrated that life can survive 3-6 months. Of course there aren’t locations on earth that have longer so it can’t be tested.
They aren't, and I suspect we're talking about different things. For one, what constitutes "winter" in GoT is a bit vague. For two, it's so bad that people die and leave the North of Westeros, and the people in the South of Westeros starve. GoT explains the winter, tells you what happens and how absolutely horrible and murderous it is, and then uses that not as a set piece but as a threat to be stopped.

Frostmaiden makes it fact, and then trivializes it. I can have no problems with GoT winter and still have all of my criticisms about Frostmaiden's implementation be untouched by that. The winter in GoT is only similar to the one in Frostmaiden in terms of being multi-year. Otherwise, they aren't the same thing at all, and that's before we look at GoT winter to see if it's at all realistic -- they don't even have magic and yet they're doing things that no real human civilization has ever done. If it was as easy to do as you suggest, why is not Antarctica peopled?
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Frickin piece of junk. My Anti-virus keeps blocking the site and I lost my entire post.
You can, of course .....I have a post all about constructive criticism, just a few posts, above.

Fiction is about suspension of disbelief. If your disbelief can't even get you across the threshold....there isn't that much more to talk about.

The module at it's heart is not about what the NPC's do, but what the players do.
Winter's Fury is unleashed...players...en media res..what do you do?
The Chard Dragon will be unleashed....what do the players do?
Nobody is going to live unless Auril is dealt with...what do the players do?
There is a really cool Lost City...what do the players do?

Since I don't want to spend another hour typing out my full response. I'll do highlights.

This phrase " If your disbelief can't even get you across the threshold." seems to ignore that it is just as much of the author's responsibility to set up disbelief as it is anyone elses. Writing a story that can't be disbelieved is not a failure on the part of the reader.

Also, I read the copy on DnD Beyond that one of my DMs has, and found things are so much worse than I thought.

See, while I agree that the story cares about what the PCs do, the PCs can't do anything unless the scene is set. And this is where the premise of the two years falls flat. Because threats like Auril and the Dragon don't matter if everyone is already dead. Nobody would be alive for the players to save, so the players can't save anyone.

Also, in skimming the start of the adventure, I had not realized that the players had come up from the South so recently. The Trade Roads are still open. The Passes are still navigable. And people down south are aware of the Endless Winter. The PCs came to the Dale in spite of the Winter.

And yet, they are not confronted with desperate people, but with normal every day life. They might get a quest to hunt down a serial killer (being told who it is), or to find some elemental spirits for a researcher. Or fight a monster fish. Life is still normal.

Which means there is no urgency, there is no desperation. In fact, the fish quest is particularly egregious in this respect. The researcher tries to shame the dwarf for sending the players to thier deaths "For what? A few fish?" as though the safe fishing of this lake isn't going, you know, keeping the town alive because everyone is starving. Nope, these few fish aren't really worth the player's lives and the Dwarf is just greedy.

None of that adds to the atmosphere of a place in desperation, a place on the brink of collapse. It reads like the Ten Towns are... annoyed at the long winter, but it isn't deadly or a real threat. Life is going on. Which means I don't really need to care.

If the NPCs who are living in the town don't find it urgent. I don't find it urgent. If food is still plentiful then no one is in danger.

Chaosmancer, by their own admission in another thread has never used a module.
"I've never seen an Opera, but the Magic Flute is bad one"........not exactly ironclad credentials there, alas.

Would you like to point me to the place where it says "Only people who have run modules can critique their stories?" I must have missed it.

Also, within that same post (which I'm sure I'll respond to there as well) I actually said I have never run a module. I have in fact played in quite a few. My DMs have run Curse of Strahd, Dungeon of the Mad Mage (woof, that was a bad start to a game. I had to really bite my tongue when I was told that our agreeing to go down the well was a one-way trip. I didn't make a character who was suicidal enough to enter a death dungeon on a whim, with no way out.), White Plume Mountain from Tales. And a few other older modules from various magazines and such.

Does my expeirence as a player in modules, and a DM in general, and as a writer of Fantasy stories qualify me enough in your eyes? Can my problems with a written plot be taken seriously now?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, while I'm not supposed to directly quote Sword, I want to point out that I did do some basic research into Coniferous trees needing sunlight, and a lot do.

The link to a google search is here How much sunlight do conifers need - Google Search

But the basics seem to be that while pale or golden conifers may burn when they are young in direct sunlight, dark green conifers need quite a bit. Seems most trees need at least six hours of direct sunlight. Which... nothing is getting that in Rime. Also, this was the site where I got the trees surviving 90 days without light How long could an ecosystem survive without sunlight?

Since, you know, seems like I need to start putting up a bibliography to show I'm not just making things up. (BTW, I know this isn't a heavily researched, peer-reviewed article type of thing. It shouldn't need to be.)
 

G

Guest User

Guest
There's some good set pieces in there, but I'm not interested in the Icewind Dales enough to buy it for those and the gazetteer section.
What Gazetteer section are you writing about? There are monsters and magic items in the Appendix section...like the good lord intended.

So you acknowledge that the set pieces are good, but your still are not interested.
Excellent...we know...you are not Interested in this product.

Should I just shoot my computer now?

.."Boring Conversation, anyway"
1602866297432.jpeg
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
What Gazetteer section are you writing about? There are monsters and magic items in the Appendix section...like the good lord intended.
Chapter 1 is pretty much a gazetteer of Icewind Dales. It describes the normal condition of the Ten Towns and gives brief info on the area and each of the towns. There's a small bit of adventure overlay with the quests, but mostly it's a gazetteer of the Ten Towns.
So you acknowledge that the set pieces are good, but your still are not interested.
Excellent...we know...you are not Interested in this product.
And what does that mean? I suspect you're trying to say something, here, but it's not coming through. Is it the already strongly debunked argument that you have to be willing to buy the product to critique it? Because, and you may want to hold on, here, I'm not buying the product because of my criticisms of it.

Not buying the product doesn't invalidate criticisms of it, no matter how many times you intimate it. If you're suggesting that I'm not aware I've solved your conundrum (don't buy it or modify it) for myself, I thought I made it clear that wasn't even a conundrum. Not only is it obvious, but it doesn't relate at all to the issue of valid criticism. If anything, it reinforces it.
Should I just shoot my computer now?

.."Boring Conversation, anyway"
View attachment 127539
You do you, man, but I'd suggest checking your budget, first.
 

TheSword

Legend
Chapter 1 is pretty much a gazetteer of Icewind Dales. It describes the normal condition of the Ten Towns and gives brief info on the area and each of the towns. There's a small bit of adventure overlay with the quests, but mostly it's a gazetteer of the Ten Towns.

And what does that mean? I suspect you're trying to say something, here, but it's not coming through. Is it the already strongly debunked argument that you have to be willing to buy the product to critique it? Because, and you may want to hold on, here, I'm not buying the product because of my criticisms of it.

Not buying the product doesn't invalidate criticisms of it, no matter how many times you intimate it. If you're suggesting that I'm not aware I've solved your conundrum (don't buy it or modify it) for myself, I thought I made it clear that wasn't even a conundrum. Not only is it obvious, but it doesn't relate at all to the issue of valid criticism. If anything, it reinforces it.

You do you, man, but I'd suggest checking your budget, first.
Just out of interest, why are you expending so much energy criticising a product you have no intention of buying?

I mean... I have no intention of getting my nose pierced... but I don’t go on an open assault on tattoo parlours?
 

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