A Chang-xiao-bang/Dai-so-jo prestige class?

[Mycanid]

Also ... how about any particular monk related feats in using the staff (either 1, 2, or 3 sectioned)?

 

[Celebrim]

Okay ... good, very good. Hmm.

Any variations come to mind for either the two or three sectioned staff?

Just the one feat I came up with earlier. You have to be more careful how you hold the three section staff, and you sort of trade the momentum of a flail for the power of a lever, but basically you can do the same things with them. If anything, the staff is a more verisital weapon because you can lunge with it, and lunging has as much or more range as lashing the three section staff like a whip but its quicker to re-ready the weapon after doing it.

As for a monk, the main advantage is that both sort of staffs should be monk weapons, and thus usuable for flurry of blows, etc.

 

[Mycanid]

Just the one feat I came up with earlier. You have to be more careful how you hold the three section staff, and you sort of trade the momentum of a flail for the power of a lever, but basically you can do the same things with them. If anything, the staff is a more verisital weapon because you can lunge with it, and lunging has as much or more range as lashing the three section staff like a whip but its quicker to re-ready the weapon after doing it.

As for a monk, the main advantage is that both sort of staffs should be monk weapons, and thus usuable for flurry of blows, etc.

Duh! Of course! What a stupendous idea! The three sectioned staff in a flurry of blows would be quite something to see indeed....

Hmm ... do you know if anyone has ever developed prestige classes in the sense of "martial arts schools" for the monk? Many of the B-grade kung fu flicks focused on members being part of certain "schools" and I don't recall this ever being fleshed out by Wotc ... maybe some d20 products have done this? I know of a few things done (and have) by The Le Games in this regard.

It would be nice if they came out with a "Complete Monk" book going into such tremendous detail about this. (Or maybe they have and I am just clueless.)

 

[NilesB]

Hmm ... from what I have seen it is not really the same thing. The striking end of the heavy flail is very different, and the Dai-so-jo would, IMO, cause less damage, don't you think? It is designed to be a little more "acrobatically" used, as I have seen it used at least.

The Dai-so-jo is well within the range of variation for european heavy flails. On the other point I think you may have fallen for the meme that oriental weapons are automatically more graceful and elegant.

 

[Celebrim]

The Dai-so-jo is well within the range of variation for european heavy flails. On the other point I think you may have fallen for the meme that oriental weapons are automatically more graceful and elegant.

The various oriental two section staves are well within the variation for a european heavy flail.

But I've never seen a European flail weapon that consists of three sections of equal length, nor do I know of any european weapon that's wielded remotely like a three section staff. If you can point me to one, I'd appreciate it, because I'm something of a martial weapon buff and I dig discovering new weapon variations.

 

[llamatron2000]

The three-section staff is considered a flail weapon. As a flail weapon, it can produce more deadly blows than its non-flail counterpart, the staff. The next step up in damage is d8, compared to d6. In this manner, its just an all-wood flail.

This is why chain maces, e.g. the classic idea of what a flail looks like, do a d8 or d10 compared to speaking of light and heavy maces, respectively.

And...I don't think 10 lbs is that wrong when speaking of a three-section staff. The metal and chain ends weigh a lot. And the wood has to be denser, probably. And really, 4 lbs is kind of light when weighing a good staff.

 

[Celebrim]

The three-section staff is considered a flail weapon. As a flail weapon, it can produce more deadly blows than its non-flail counterpart, the staff.

There are a couple of problems with that analysis. First, in many of the more common techniques, a three section staff is wielded like dual jo sticks and not like a flail. Wielded like that, it actually hits less hard than a staff.

If you wanted to make the most of the flail action, you'd probably just use two sections, not three.

And a staff has its own means of generating force - mechanical leverage. Small hard movements generate larger fast movements at the end of the staff.

And really, 4 lbs is kind of light when weighing a good staff.

3-4 lbs is about spot on for an 8' standard diameter dense hardwood staff. And that's longer than a traditional quarterstaff and too tall for most medievals.

Most of the weapons in the PH are realistically too heavy, not too light. My research shows that fight grade three section staffs weigh about 2.5-3 lbs.

 

[FireLance]

Ok, brain storming up some staff related feats.

Actually, I think some of these aren't really worth a feat, such as Staff Mastery, Long Style, and Center of the Forest. On the other hand, Great Leverage is probably too much for a single feat - to a character with high Strength, it is worth a lot more than Weapon Specialization.

One idea that I've been thinking about recently is the idea of weapon knacks: little tricks that represent additional skill with a weapon that aren't exactly worth a feat. I originally planned to use them in a low-technology campaign setting where the PCs would only have access to primitive, mostly simple, weapons. To give an additional benefit to characters with proficiency in all martial weapons, I would allow them to select a weapon knack for each simple weapon they were proficient in, effectively turning a simple weapon into a martial weapon in their hands.

The basic weapon knacks I came up with were:

1. Improved damage dice: The weapon's damage dice improves by one step. This cannot exceed 1d6 for a light weapon, 1d8 for a one-handed weapon, or 1d12 for a two-handed weapon.

2. Improved threat range: The weapon's base threat range increases by 1, to a maximum of 18-20. The critical multiplier for this increased threat range is x2; a weapon that has a critical multiplier of x3 or more only deals this higher damage on its original threat range.

3. Improved critical multiplier: The weapon's critical multiplier increases by 1, to a maximum of x4. If the weapon's threat range is more than 20, it only deals this higher damage on an attack roll of 20 (or 19-20 with Improved Critical or a keen weapon).

4. Finesse knack: The wielder can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply his Dexterity modifier instead of his Strength modifier to attack rolls with this weapon.

5. Trip knack: The wielder can make trip attacks with this weapon. If tripped during his own trip attempt, he can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.

6. Disarm knack: The wielder gains a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent, including the roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails.

7. Additional damage type: The wielder may deal an additional type of damage (bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing) with this weapon.​

To this list of knacks, I think you can add Long Style (use a double weapon as a two-handed reach weapon), Center of the Forest (threaten normally and at reach with a reach weapon) and Great Leverage (gain full Strength bonus with off-hand end of a double weapon and treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of Power Attack). Staff Mastery is effectively Trip Knack in the list above.

Since two knacks effectively turn a simple weapon into an exotic weapon, I think one feat for two knacks would be a good trade-off.

Alternatively, the base feat could grant a single knack, plus an additional knack for every weapon skill feat such as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, etc.

If you want to increase the difficulty of obtaining certain knacks (like Center of the Forest), they could have BAB or feat prerequisites.

 

[llamatron2000]

There are a couple of problems with that analysis. First, in many of the more common techniques, a three section staff is wielded like dual jo sticks and not like a flail. Wielded like that, it actually hits less hard than a staff.

Weapon damage is generalized as a best-scenario hit in D&D. Because when you score a hit, it is considered a hit that -matters-. Rolling low on the dice would be the equivalent of using it for short punches and getting a hit off. Or...short punches would be how a monk would use it, using flurry.

And a staff has its own means of generating force - mechanical leverage. Small hard movements generate larger fast movements at the end of the staff.

Uhh, the same could be said about almost any weapon you swing with your arm. Including your arm. The flail has the advantage of being able to generate extra momentum along the chain.

As for the weight thing, yes, it could is an issue. But really, its only ten pounds. You could change that if you wanted, and it would be pretty fine to me.

 

[Celebrim]

Uhh, the same could be said about almost any weapon you swing with your arm. Including your arm.

Yes, it could. Which is why tall people have a mechanical advantage when throwing a ball or a flying disk or whatever. But most peoples arm's aren't 6-8' long. Are you suggesting that a lever doesn't generate mechanical advantage?

The flail has the advantage of being able to generate extra momentum along the chain.

Alot of people are very confused about the physics of this, and you get alot of myths about. When swung, a flail gains no extra momentum compared to solid object of the same length and weight. In fact, in practice when used in this manner a flexible object tends to impart less kinetic energy than solid object because the moment of inertia is smaller (something that eastern martials arts tend to ignore). It bounces rather than pushes. The way you can generate extra momentum with a flexible object is to transfer all of the motion of the longer object into smaller arc usually with a whip like motion. The problem is that a sufficiently heavy flail is very difficult to whip, and one that must be swung in a circle to gain momentum will be too clumsy in an actual fight.

I've never been convinced that a flail does appreciably more damage than a mace of the same general construction. Alot of the advantages of a flail don't really translate so well:

• The haft does not splinter or break when you misstrike. Anyone that has driven piles or split wood knows what I'm talking about.
• It is more difficult to parry and defend against a flail than a mace like weapon. In particular, parrying it badly provides that whipping action which is otherwise so difficult to perform.
• The shock of impact is not transmitted to your hand, making the weapon easier to keep hold of.