D&D 5E (2024) A critical analysis of 2024's revised classes

[I'm A Banana]

A lot of the fighter/wizard squabbling is about genre and aesthetics more than it is about balance. It doesn't matter how much a fighter can do, if a wizard can cast wish or teleport or whatever, then there's a certain "high magic" vibe that a certain subset of the player base just cannot abide. And "play at lower levels" is not a really great way to mitigate that, since character growth is such a strong hook for play.

It'll be fixed again in 6e when levels only go up to 10.

 

[Zardnaar]

What I have noticed, having lived through 5/6 edition changes, is just how little anger there is. Not that anyone is saying "everything about 5.5 is wonderful", but most criticism has been measured and reasoned. Compare that to the arguments about 4e that are still raging till this day.

Of course, the OP was channelling enough anger for everyone.

Theres anger at WotC, negative views towards 5.5 are more indifference elsewhere.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I've said it before and I'll say it again... I have always felt it's the people complaining about "wizard supremacy" who are louder and angrier about it than any "wizard fan" demanding that the wizard be king or bitching when another class supposedly moves in on their territory.

Now maybe I just don't go to the places where the "wizard fans" are actually bitching when something isn't designed to keep that class the best... but at least around here it's always seem to me people suggesting that the wizard fans keep yelling and getting mad, than it is than actually seeing the wizard fans themselves behave that way.

 

[Zardnaar]

I've said it before and I'll say it again... I have always felt it's the people complaining about "wizard supremacy" who are louder and angrier about it than any "wizard fan" demanding that the wizard be king or bitching when another class supposedly moves in on their territory.

Now maybe I just don't go to the places where the "wizard fans" are actually bitching when something isn't designed to keep that class the best... but at least around here it's always seem to me people suggesting that the wizard fans keep yelling and getting mad, than it is than actually seeing the wizard fans themselves behave that way.

Yup and they haven't actually played 5.5 or not well if they are.

They haven't figured out the Wizards been eclipsed by pretty much every other spellcaser. Until the highest levels at least.

Command and emanations seem to be the new meta if you design encounters RAW.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I’ve often wondered about this. Fighters have always been one of the stronger classes in 5e, yet any thread about martial/caster balance tends to focus on them.

i think it's because it's not about doing more damage, yes, martials have decent damage numbers, BUT, the casters don't really trail that far behind them in damage and have absolute masses of versatility options, rogues, barbs and monks do tend to have a handful of abilities that let them do different stuff but the fighters seem to get barest amount of things they can do, some of which even require them to cut into their combat capability resources to achieve which is why discussions tend to focus on them.

 

[Pedantic]

I mean the real problem has always been that a bunch of magic is relegated to plot enabler/deus ex machina in fantasy literature, and the wizard is explicitly written as the source of those abilities in D&D.

High level magic is setting deforming and does crowd out a lot of the narrative power of martial characters when it's taken out of the hands of supporting characters or not carefully controlled by an author with an agenda. The real fight is basically over whether or not that's what wizards should be doing in the first place.

 

[Minigiant]

I've said it before and I'll say it again... I have always felt it's the people complaining about "wizard supremacy" who are louder and angrier about it than any "wizard fan" demanding that the wizard be king or bitching when another class supposedly moves in on their territory.

Now maybe I just don't go to the places where the "wizard fans" are actually bitching when something isn't designed to keep that class the best... but at least around here it's always seem to me people suggesting that the wizard fans keep yelling and getting mad, than it is than actually seeing the wizard fans themselves behave that way.

Wizard supremacy isn't vocal. It's subliminal.

For example the biggest that that dragged 5e's class mechanical design was The constant insistence that the 5e fighter chassis contain the Champion, Battlemaster, "Warlord", and Eldritch Knight archetype by people who saw the class as for less intelligent archetypes (this squeezing incompatible aspects together) and the preservation of the intelligent classes. This ended up 'wasting" tons of development time.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I mean the real problem has always been that a bunch of magic is relegated to plot enabler/deus ex machina in fantasy literature, and the wizard is explicitly written as the source of those abilities in D&D.

High level magic is setting deforming and does crowd out a lot of the narrative power of martial characters when it's taken out of the hands of supporting characters or not carefully controlled by an author with an agenda. The real fight is basically over whether or not that's what wizards should be doing in the first place.

At 20th level, of course they should. There's no point in having your game go to 20 if you aren't.

But that then means the 20th level Fighter should also have campaign altering abilities to match... but then that brings out all the players who don't want the Fighter to be anything but "mundane". Which of course begs the question what exactly is a 20th level mundane character supposed to be able to do?

And even when someone attempts to make a mundane 20th level Fighter that is.mechanically balanced against that same wizard... folks who care about "verisimilitude" complain about the unrealistic of that.

You can't win.

 

[TwoSix]

I've said it before and I'll say it again... I have always felt it's the people complaining about "wizard supremacy" who are louder and angrier about it than any "wizard fan" demanding that the wizard be king or bitching when another class supposedly moves in on their territory.

Now maybe I just don't go to the places where the "wizard fans" are actually bitching when something isn't designed to keep that class the best... but at least around here it's always seem to me people suggesting that the wizard fans keep yelling and getting mad, than it is than actually seeing the wizard fans themselves behave that way.

Why would people complain when they're winning?

Besides, "wizard fan" isn't really a nuanced take. People who prefer caster supremacy are generally those who are accustomed to and comfortable with the tropes of broad and powerful classic D&D magic, and having the class(es) that are skilled with that style of magic become the most powerful classes is simply the outcome that provides the most verisimilitude when those tropes are applied to a setting.

 

[TwoSix]

At 20th level, of course they should. There's no point in having your game go to 20 if you aren't.

But that then means the 20th level Fighter should also have campaign altering abilities to match... but then that brings out all the players who don't want the Fighter to be anything but "mundane". Which of course begs the question what exactly is a 20th level mundane character supposed to be able to do?

And even when someone attempts to make a mundane 20th level Fighter that is.mechanically balanced against that same wizard... folks who care about "verisimilitude" complain about the unrealistic of that.

You can't win.

100% agreement. There are too many popular assumptions around class tropes and design that are in direct contradiction. There's no way to square the circle.