D&D 5E (2024) A critical analysis of 2024's revised classes

[Zardnaar]

But it does not mean or indicate that it skews the results. It does not provide evidence the survey results would be different with a different sample, especially when both groups of people would have the same goals in broad terms (improving the game).

Your hypothesis rests on the idea that "dedicated" players want different things than "casual" players and there is no evidence of that.

Dedicated players probably prefer a bit more crunch a day more likely to participate.

If you have enough of them I dont think they'll differ from casuals in any drastic way on big picture stuff.

Theyre getting a bigger pool if responses vs say political polling.

 

[saviirkad]

Your hypothesis rests on the idea that "dedicated" players want different things than "casual" players and there is no evidence of that.

Didn't Mearls post recently how the different types of surveys showed drastically different results and interests between dedicated players and casual?

 

[Sulicius]

Didn't Mearls post recently how the different types of surveys showed drastically different results and interests between dedicated players abd casual?

He did!

There was a fair amount of market research as part of 5e, mainly because the gap between forums and the reality of sales was so large that we needed a better way to get feedback.

Starting with the 5e playtest and going forward, we did regular surveys and studies to understand what people were doing with 5e and what they liked/disliked about it.

I think the methods are different - they seem to use D&D Beyond a lot more, rather than open calls for anyone to fill out a survey - but they still do that stuff. I know that they sometimes send marketing surveys to Beyond users. I received one a few months ago.

Two things stand out for me:

D&D surveys had huge response rates. People were always eager to share their opinions.

The gap between survey results and online discussion was vast. The fighter is a great example. A lot of online people consider the class incredibly weak and lame, but it was always one of the most popular and well-liked class in surveys.

The second point was a big reason why studying the market was important. Online feedback is good for tactical problems, like resolving ambiguity for specific rules. It’s terrible for strategic directions, like how complex the game should be.

 

[Zardnaar]

He did!

Basically what I said years ago.

3.X is broken was really for forum use theory craft.

4E did its thing fixing problems most people (read casuals) wouldnt have a problem with.

Druid (least popular class) was the most broken thing by itself. At least at levels play at.

My group was plugged into the forums and even we didn't play like the forums assumed.

Forums kinda assumed every one had the required books and the knowledge to abuse them.

I noticed a lot of groups had a phb maybe 2 and 1-2 books.

I had around 40 or so.

Pun pun was purely theoretical. I suspect XYZ 5 and 5-10 levels of prestige classes were theoretical as well in most groups.

We made it to level 15 once in 3E. Any higher we created characters at those levels. We did do some games 20-30 even then it was more casual except maybe 1 player.

 

[ECMO3]

Dedicated players probably prefer a bit more crunch a day more likely to participate.

I don't agree with this and the people on this board as well as the D&D influencers (all "dedicated") have wildly variant opinions on this.

That is part of why I can't accept this position. There are people on this board that love 2024 and people that hate it, there are people that think they should have kept certain things and people that think they shouldn't.

Most convincingly though there are people on the board that say the survey results are bad and then those same people (dedicated players) also claim it is not representative.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't agree with this and the people on this board as well as the D&D influencers (all "dedicated") have wildly variant opinions on this.

That is part of why I can't accept this position. There are people on this board that love 2024 and people that hate it, there are people that think they should have kept certain things and people that think they shouldn't.

Most convincingly though there are people on the board that say the survey results are bad and then those same people (dedicated players) also claim it is not representative.

Its an internet thing. Poll doesn't give me the results I like dismiss the poll. You see it in other areas as well IRL regarding polls.

Casuals probably dont pay much attention to D&D behind the scenes stuff imho.

The ones that do will vary from say forum users.

I haven't thought the gorum users were particularly representative of the playerbase since 2002 or so.

Owning 40-60 books per edition cycle isnt typical

Add in echo chambers and reality tends to give people shocks.

Hell I remember 5E internal development was leaked and people just dismissed it. Then they announced the public playtest.

That first packet was a lightning bolt. Resembled pre 3E for than 3E and 4E.

 

[ECMO3]

He did!

If you take that at face value then you can't really conclude that it is "dedicated players" who took the surveys.

D&D surveys had huge response rates. People were always eager to share their opinions.

The gap between survey results and online discussion was vast. The fighter is a great example. A lot of online people consider the class incredibly weak and lame, but it was always one of the most popular and well-liked class in surveys.

The "online discussion" are the dedicated players.

 

[Zardnaar]

If you take that at face value then you can't really conclude that it is "dedicated players" who took the surveys.

D&D surveys had huge response rates. People were always eager to share their opinions.

The gap between survey results and online discussion was vast. The fighter is a great example. A lot of online people consider the class incredibly weak and lame, but it was always one of the most popular and well-liked class in surveys.

The "online discussion" are the dedicated players.

I noticed fighters still being popular in 3e despite "sucking".

D&D isnt class vs class though. Its class vs whatever the DM throws at you

Fighters and fireball still killed things fine in 3E. There was just better options.