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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
A Dance with Dragons blurb released
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replicant2
First Post
Mark said:
Frankly, I'm very tired of the comparison. I think just about every fantasy writer who writes multi-book series and sells half-decently gets labelled as "the next Tolkien" at one point or another.
Not that Martin is just any fantasy writer. The guy is a talent and definitely worth reading. But I will say that I think the series is showing some signs of flagging (and I blogged about this issue not too long ago, so I'll just reiterate my thoughts here):
While just about every fantasy series these days gets compared to LOTR, trying to draw analogies between A Song of Ice and Fire and the former does not work. Frankly, it's nothing like Tolkien’s trilogy. A Song of Ice and Fire is written in a very modern style, is loaded with graphic, intense battle sequences, scheming kings and noble (and not-so-noble) families, backstabbing, political maneuvering, and treachery galore. There's no fat hobbits, no wistful elves, and no poetry. It's been compared to the historic War of the Roses, and I think that's a very apt parallel.
So what makes it such a great series? Sharp, engaging writing, fully fleshed-out, three dimensional characters, and unpredictable, entertaining, edge-of-your seat plotting for starters. Unlike 99% of traditional fantasy, Martin does not pick favorites and spare them the sword. Anyone, and I mean anyone, is as capable of meeting the Reaper as the next character. Nor is there any obvious sacrificial “red shirts” a. la. Star Trek.
A Song of Ice and Fire is also quite graphic and breaks from the PG-13 level of sex and violence that's the norm in most popular fantasy series (e.g., Dragonlance, Shannara, The Belgariad, etc). This series is NOT for the faint of heart. There’s sadism, murder, cruelties piled upon undeserving characters, heartbreaking betrayals, and worse.
And as great as A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings were, I thought Martin one-upped himself with A Storm of Swords. I won't reveal any spoilers here, but there's a scene in that book ("The Red Wedding") that leaves your mouth hanging open in shock. Once you read it, you realize that Martin has demolished the common conceptions of the traditional epic, multi-book fantasy that chokes the fantasy sections of bookstores these days. It opened a window and allowed some sorely needed fresh air into a genre that many (myself included) felt had grown repetitive and stale. In short, circa 2000, Martin was on top of the world and could do no wrong.
But then something happened. A Storm of Swords came out in 2000, which made sense as its preceeding two novels were spaced just two years apart (A Game of Thrones was published in 1996, and A Clash of Kings came out in 1998). But it took until 2005, five long years, until Martin released A Feast for Crows.
While it proved to be an excruciatingly long wait, the justification seemed reasonable--Crows was shaping up to be very long, longer in fact than the phonebook-sized (900-odd page) A Storm of Swords, and Martin needed extra time to write it. In fact, he ultimately decided to break it up into two books, the second tentatively titled A Dance with Dragons, and release both within a short time frame.
When A Feast for Crows finally came out in 2005, I did something I rarely do--I purchased the hardcover within a few days of its release, so strong was my anticipation. But troublingly, A Feast for Crows (to me at least) marked the first misstep for A Song of Ice and Fire. Already a complex tale with a large cast of characters, and with action occurring simultaneously in multiple areas of Westeros, A Feast for Crows failed to advance the action nearly as much as its predecessors. Mind you, this is a 700-page tome, and while, like the other books in the series, its very well-written, in hindsight, not a heck of a lot occurred between its covers.
By way of comparison, the hardbound The Lord of the Rings I have sitting on my bookshelf checks in at a slim 1,008 pages--all three "books" (Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King) combined. To put that in perspective, A Storm of Swords, alone, is nearly as long as LOTR!
While I've never read Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, that series is much maligned for its massive books that seem to accomplish less with every sequel (of which there are 1o books or so, I believe). In fact, the series has gone on for so long that Jordan unfortunately passed away from a rare disease before he was able to complete it.
Unfortunately, comparisons between The Wheel of Time and A Song of Ice and Fire suddenly don't seem too far-fetched. It's now been more than two years since A Feast for Crows, and there's still no Dance from Martin. And this this is a book that was supposedly (mostly) already written, as it was supposed to consist of material and characters that Martin had to pare away from Crows.
So where does this leave A Song of Ice and Fire? Hopefully just on temporary hold. Hopefully. I don't want to sound like I'm whining as I firmly believe that Martin is a very talented author. If he truly needs this much time to write these novels, so be it. But there are consequences.
In my own case, my passion for A Song of Ice and Fire has cooled. I've actually forgotten many of the plotlines and characters and anticipate having to again re-read large sections of the last four novels to remember what was going on. Martin has said that A Song of Ice and Fire will wrap up in seven books, but at this pace we can expect to see it concluded in 2018 or thereabouts. By that time it wouldn't surprise me to find that many readers have moved on or fallen off the bandwagon.
My lesson? In the future I will likely refrain from reading a series until it's been completed. I still highly recommend the series, but I'll now add a firm "caveat emptor" to potential readers of A Song of Ice and Fire.
Steel_Wind
Legend
AFFC suffered by reason of the fact that the "metaplot" of the novels is advanced principally by the characters Jon, Danaerys, Bran and Tyrion.
Which is not to say that there are not other interesting points of view. Arya, in particular is a fan favorite - and Sansa has her moments I suppose. But to date, the metaplot of the SoIaF novels has not been advanced by Arya's POV.
The result is that AFFC, by excluding the principal metaplot characters (there are a few - but not the "big three") - and by reason that these characters are also by and large the most beloved by fans, what we got was half a book.
Had AFFC incorporated those chapters we expect to see in ADWD and had them interspersed as we have had in the first three novels, I do not think anyone would have had cause to complain.
I enjoyed AFFC for what's it's worth. But I also noticed that when I read the latest sample chapter on GRRM's homepage, namely, a chapter featuring Jon Snow, I realized what I had missed so much from AFFC. I was genuinely excited to read it.
So why is he flagging? My belief is that the five year gap he had planned for the story just would not work and, as a consequence, GRRM was at sea in terms of how he planned to move the story forward. He became lost in his own tale. Add in the distraction of great critical success - and a financial success vastly greater than 99.9% of other living authors, and it has made it very difficult for GRRM to feel his muse and to develop the motivation to write with the speed that an author of his caliber is capable of - and which fans have a right to expect.
Which is not to say that there are not other interesting points of view. Arya, in particular is a fan favorite - and Sansa has her moments I suppose. But to date, the metaplot of the SoIaF novels has not been advanced by Arya's POV.
The result is that AFFC, by excluding the principal metaplot characters (there are a few - but not the "big three") - and by reason that these characters are also by and large the most beloved by fans, what we got was half a book.
Had AFFC incorporated those chapters we expect to see in ADWD and had them interspersed as we have had in the first three novels, I do not think anyone would have had cause to complain.
I enjoyed AFFC for what's it's worth. But I also noticed that when I read the latest sample chapter on GRRM's homepage, namely, a chapter featuring Jon Snow, I realized what I had missed so much from AFFC. I was genuinely excited to read it.
So why is he flagging? My belief is that the five year gap he had planned for the story just would not work and, as a consequence, GRRM was at sea in terms of how he planned to move the story forward. He became lost in his own tale. Add in the distraction of great critical success - and a financial success vastly greater than 99.9% of other living authors, and it has made it very difficult for GRRM to feel his muse and to develop the motivation to write with the speed that an author of his caliber is capable of - and which fans have a right to expect.
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LightPhoenix
First Post
Steel_Wind said:
I never really thought of it that way before, but I completely agree. It seems a lot of my "fan favorites" (Arya, Jaime, Brienne) seem to be in AFFC, which is nice but doesn't advance the plot at all.
I would add Davos to the "metaplot" characters, as he's how we get most of the story on Stannis and Melisandre pre-AFFC.
Fast Learner
First Post
This complaint never fails to baffle me. I can only assume it's most commonly held by people who haven't written a lot of fiction. Books take as long as they take. It having been mostly written doesn't mean anything: it's not done until it's done.replicant2 said:
The other part of it that I don't get is why it matters. So it takes five years, let's say: how will the story be any less good? Is there a problem with re-reading these excellent books in order to refresh your memory? Are you concerned that you'll die before the story is finished, and if so, so what, were you not hugely entertained by the part you read so far?
I don't mean to aim this at you personally, I really mean to aim it at everyone who makes this complaint. I simply don't see what the big deal is.
replicant2
First Post
Fast Learner said:
I wasn't so much bothered by Feast's delay (as I said in my previous post, I bought it immediately in hardcover, which is a rarity for me) as by what it delivered. Feast had a few cool scenes and was again very well-written, but I thought it marked the first misstep in the series. In 700-plus pages, Martin failed to advance the action to any significant degree.
In short, if we had waited 5 years for another Game of Thrones, Clash of Kings, or Storm of Swords, I wouldn't be posting in this thread. But, at least in my opinion, that's not what Martin delivered. I'm going to read the series to its conclusion with the highest hopes, but after A Feast for Crows I'm a bit concerned about the omnipresent danger of series bloat that seems to afflict so many fantasy writers these days.
Steel_Wind
Legend
replicant2 said:
The delay between Storm of Swords and AFFC was longer than anyone wanted - including GRRM.
For all that, the problem which I saw in A Wheel of Time is not (yet) present in SoIaF. In Wheel of Time, Jordan wrote a series initially that was going in a particular direction in terms of his metaplot and overall thrust of the story.
Perceptibly, after the first volume in WoT series, and again after the fourth and sixth volumes, it became apparent that Jordan had changed direction with no purpose other than to lengthen the series. New obstacles were placed in the path of the characters that seemed out of place, neither foreshadowed nor logically appearing. In the result, they appeared to be what they in fact were: awkward contrivances.
Worse, conflict between the principal heroes and heroines of the WoT story were introduced which seem irrational and extremely contrived - and Jordan had the gall to do this more than once. It became obvious to the reader that this plot device was being employed for no other purpose than to lengthen the tale through such contrived "false conflicts".
But its not just Jordan. Goodkind relied upon this same device of false conflict between hero and heroine to lengthen the Sword of Truth novels. (With SoT, as with WoT, when this plot device reared its head in too perceptible a fashion - I quit reading the series and deliberately put it aside. I'd had enough of this crap.)
Contrast this transparency of obvious "new" directions and "false conflicts" in both Wheel of Time and Sword of Truth with GRRM's Song of Ice and Fire. I do not see the false conflict, save perhaps between Jaime and Cersei Lannister. (Any other intra-Lannister conflict was foreshadowed from the very first chapters in GoT - GRRM was always going there.)
More importantly, I do not detect a false change in metaplot direction to deliberately lengthen the story. While it may well be that the tale "grew in the telling" and is taking much longer to reach its goal than first thought, it does not seem to me that GRRM has bent his tale out of shape or diverted its course from that originally intended with respect to his main plot. It's simply taking him longer to get where he was always going. The emerging subplot in AFFC involving the High Septon and the sparrows seems a little contrived and out of place in light of the previous books perhaps. But that's really the only part in SoIaF where there seems some artificiality. GRRM is doing, on a comparative basis, extremely well with such an unexpected meandering, as it has not affected the main metaplot.
I think that is the principal difference between comparing the overly long Wheel of Time to the not-yet-overly-long Song of Ice and Fire. It is a distinction with a difference.
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Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
My gripe with the delay is that GRRM stated (or at least implied) that ADWD was essentially done when AFFC was written, since they were written together, and it was only toward the end he decided to split them into two parallel books due to length. It was supposed to be a year or less between AFFC and ADWD. So if a significant amount of the book was done, why does it look like it will end up being 3 years between books?
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