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Pathfinder 1E A death & dying system that can't skip Dying

ZenFox42

First Post
The "dead at -CON" rule works GREAT for low-level characters. Let's say that CR 1,2,3 monsters can do a max of 10 HP damage per attack. So a 1st-3rd level PC *can't die* on a single attack : even if they're down to 1 HP, the next attack can only take them to -9 HP, and even if their CON is only 10, they're still alive (that's the basic most-of-the-time idea, I know it's easy to come up with exceptions).

Problem is, even by 7th level an "average" monster is doing maybe 25 HP per attack (and some can do up to 35!), so a PC with even 10 HP left stands a very good chance of skipping "dying" and going right to "dead" on the next attack. The player might have thought with 10 HP left and a CON buffer of (say) -14 HP until he's dead, he was safe, so he kept on fighting - and then suddenly he's dead. If that doesn't bother you, then this new system is not for you.

The main point of this system is : you cannot skip the Dying condition. This allows the DM to do as much ordinary damage as he likes without worry, and allows PC's to stay in battle down to close to 0 HP without fear of suddenly being dead – instead, the closer they get to 0 HP, the better the odds the next attack can take them into Dying. Once in DeathCon, the player knows exactly how close he is to dying, and his comrades have some time to do something about it, but still hopefully leaves enough of a chance of death to make it exciting. And as far as I know, this will work for D&D 3.5 as well.

However, it is still relatively easy to kill someone once they get into DeathCon (3 failed Death Saving Throws and/or successful hits, in any combination), and a Dying PC will most likely (75%) end up dead if left on their own.

The DM still has many options as to how deadly he wants to be – once a PC drops into DeathCon2 (unconscious), the opponent could move on to someone else, or go for a Coup de Grace. And it’s still also possible to kill a PC in just one round from iterative attacks or from being surrounded by opponents.

It is closely based on D&D 4e's way of handling death&dying, but with a couple of small-but-important differences.

It closely mimics the way Pathfinder handles death&dying, but not exactly. Options to make it even more like Pathfinder are discussed afterwards.

Items in italics are options for the DM to decide how he wants to run things.

====================================================================

When a character first drops to 0 or negative HP for the day, he is at DeathCon1*, and Dying. Negative HP is not tracked; Dying characters stay at 0 HP (any additional damage taken has no effect on HP, you stay at 0 HP).

DeathCon1 : you are Dying but conscious
......This allows the PC to make a choice – continue fighting, or seek healing
......Add any limitations you think appropriate (if any), like “all rolls and AC are at –2”, or “you can only take a Move or Standard action”, etc. These only apply while your HP=0.
DeathCon2 : you are Dying and unconscious
DeathCon3 : you are Dying and unconscious
DeathCon4 : you are dead, Jim

You continue to make any allowed saving throws to end various effects thru DeathCon3.

Dying and Stabilizing
When you are Dying, you make an unmodified d20 Death Saving Throw at the end of your round.
......1-9 : your DeathCon increases by 1.
......10-19 : your DeathCon does not change.
......20 : your DeathCon does not change, and you automatically Stabilize.
When Stable, you no longer make Death Saving Throws, and stay at your current DeathCon and 0 HP.
......A teammate can also Stabilize you as normal with a DC=15 Heal skill check.
I personally would leave the Death Saving Throw roll unmodified, so that the chances of PC death are even across the board for the players' sake (as opposed to adding modifiers for “realism”). But if you want to add any modifiers, or even feats that add modifiers, feel free.

Healing and Damage
While your HP=0, further damage increases your DeathCon by 1*, and makes you Dying if you were Stable.
Any amount of healing restores you to that many HP (because you've been staying at 0 HP), and automatically Stabilizes you.
However, your DeathCon value does not change until you get 8 hours rest, at which point it either (goes back to 0) or (decreases by 1).
Optional : while HP > 0, apply any penalties for running around while in DeathCon, like : all rolls are at –2*DeathCon, and casters have a spell failure of 10%*DeathCon (adjust values as you see fit).
......Note that this does NOT emulate how PF does death&dying, as there are no penalties for coming back from Dying in PF.
If you take damage down to <= 0 HP again, your current DeathCon increases by 1*, and you are Dying.
If you allow Massive Damage, it adds +2 to your DeathCon and takes you to Dying if the save is failed.
* : A critical increases your current DeathCon by (the multiplier of the critical) or (+2).

Miscellaneous
Fast Healing or Regeneration : restores the indicated HP each round, but does not change DeathCon.
Diehard : you always auto-Stabilize, and at DeathCon2 or 3 you remain conscious but Staggered; you can take CON/5 (rounded down) Standard or “strenuous” actions before your DeathCon increases by 1.
Orc Ferocity : once/day, you do not have to roll a Death Saving Throw on your first round in DeathCon.
Coup de Grace : treat as normal, except that if you succeed on the saving throw you still increase DeathCon by +2 for the auto-critical.
When a raging Barbarian leaves DeathCon1, they go to DeathCon3. The Raging Vitality feat negates this.

====================================================================

If a PC in DeathCon1 is left alone, they have a 75% chance of dying in typically 3-9 rounds (average of 6), and a 25% chance of Stabilizing on their own in an average of 4 rounds (evenly distributed across DeathCon 1,2,3). A PC in DeathCon1 can act 2 rounds on average before losing consciousness.

Once most creatures hit DeathCon2, you can walk away from them for a while if you need to, they're not getting up again on their own (unless their side has a Cleric). But you can't walk away from creatures with Diehard, Fast Healing, or Regeneration – you have to keep hitting them until they’re dead.

It’s important that there be no magic that reduces DeathCon levels, otherwise every party will have a caster/potion/wand/whatever that can, and it ceases to be important. Same for Feats – nothing can reduce it.

To emulate PF completely, reset DeathCon to 0 upon getting any healing (because PF has no "memory" of how many times you enter the Dying condition each day), and go unconscious at DeathCon1 which happens when HP go negative. Then treat 0 HP as per PF's rules.

If you want to think of DeathCon levels as “injuries”, then apply penalties for running around in DeathCon (HP > 0), and maybe only heal one DeathCon level per full night's sleep.

Example : on the first battle of the day, Franco the fighter eventually takes a hit that would put him at -25 HP, so he enters DeathCon1 and 0 HP. When his next turn comes, Franco decides to continue fighting and rolls his attacks. But the DM has decided that any PC in DeathCon1 (and with HP=0) is at -2 to all rolls and AC, so he includes those penalties. At the end of his turn, Franco rolls a d20 for his Death Saving Throw and gets a 12, so he stays in DeathCon1. A friend of Franco’s takes his turn to run over to Franco and makes a Heal check to Stabilize him, which succeeds. Now if Franco takes no more hits, he would stay at DeathCon1 indefinitely without making any more Death Saving Throws. But during the next round, he takes 2 more hits, ignoring the actual damage done and instead progressing to DeathCon2 (and collapses, unconscious) and then DeathCon3. Just BTW, if one of those two hits had been a critical, he’d be dead at this point. But now the party’s Cleric casts a powerful Channel Energy for 30 HP, restoring Franco to 30 HP and bringing him back to consciousness. He and his party manage to kill the rest of the monsters before he would go negative again, so he remains at DeathCon3 for the rest of the day, until he can sleep 8 hours.
 

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3catcircus

Adventurer
I'm not sure I see the problem you are attempting to "solve" since players should already be aware of the implications if they've been battling a foe and see it dish out 25 hp per attack up to the point they are where they get down to 10 hp.

PCs with a CON of 15 who only have 10 hp left continuing to go against foes who can dish out an average of 25 hp per hit should die instantly if they take another hit. It is called discretion being the better part of valor.

There are so many other options: withdraw (the best option in this example), run, total defense, take a tactical move to put someone or something between you and your attacker, take a swift or immediate action, drink a healing potion.

That having been said, a simpler and easier way to deal with this may be to consider the following:

1. Pick some threshold (some portion of the hit point total) - say 10%.
2. When you hit that threshold, roll a will save (maybe DC equal to the amount of damage of the last attack?) If you fail it, you go into shock and can't take any actions the next round.
3. At the beginning of each subsequent round, make a will save to stay out of (or shake off the effects of) shock.
4. If you take another hit that drops you below 0 hp, your hp go to just 0 and make a Fort save (DC equal to the amount of damage of the last attack). If you pass, you are in shock and can take no actions for the remainder of combat. If you fail, you are unstable and bleeding out.
5. Use the rules for stabilization until you are stable or hit -Con and die.
6. Coup de grace should always do what it does

Me - I like to use a different system that uses hit location and hp thresholds and compares to damage to get different wound effects (anything from a minor penalty on actions due to a slight wound, all the way up to the potential for catastrophic limb amputation and subsequent instability as the PC's lifeblood arcs out of the wound, and even instant-death for massive damage to the head or chest region...)
 

It's a tricky issue I've never seen solved adequately.

You don't want people to be easily one-shotted. You should have a chance of hanging around in a near death state for a round or two before expiring.
But you shouldn't be immortal either. Continuous damage after being knocked down should be dangerous. At at higher levels, being at single digit hitpoints and then smacked for a large amount of damage should carry the risk of instant death. If you choose to keep fighting rather than fall back to heal, and the dire ogre hits you with a huge great axe critical you should die.

I like the death saves of 4e and 5e because it makes death less certain but always gives you a couple rounds. I like how 5e makes rolling a "1" really bad and taking damage is scary.
But I don't like the ability to survive until negative bloodied is just too much.

Let's look at this system.
Not it tracking negatives does mean healing is more effective, as you don't need to get someone back to positives.
Having played 4e a bit, knowing that characters always have a couple rounds tends to mean they're easier to ignore. It was meant to have more tension, removing the metagame countdown of 3e. Characters were much harder to kill.
 

Thotas

First Post
I'm too lazy to dig for it right now, but I have a 3e adventure called "The Lost City of Somethingorother" or (something like that) that recommends death at negative 10+level for exactly this reason. Pathfinder version would be negative Con+level, or course. Anyway, having that margin scale with level seemed like a fairly simple way to address it when I read it, whether it's the best way or not I don't know. Trivia note: adventure's author's father was named E. Gary yes, that guy.
 

Stormonu

Legend
Wouldn't a simple fix be that an attack can't knock you below 0 - or -1 or whatever the "dying" threshhold is. Additional attacks can add on to damage and you can set the death threshhold at whatever you want.

That way, you have to stop at dying before some mug can kill you. Gives you at least a chance to do something, even if it is just to gurgle "Rosebud!" before you die.
 

ZenFox42

First Post
Jester Canuk - so, if you don't like surviving down to negative Bloodied HP, you should like this system, since it doesn't use that part of 4e. And the fact that this system doesn't track negative HP with respect to healing is no different than 4e.

If you want to add more urgency for the other players to save their comrade, simply have DeathCon3 be "dead". Then starting from DeathCon1 you have an 80% chance of dying in only 4 rounds on average (and in as little as 2 rounds if you roll badly), and only a 20% chance of Stabilizing, if left on your own.


Thotas - Some time ago, I took all the data from Pathfinder's spreadsheet monster database and analyzed the damage they did by level. To have an even half-way chance of surviving a single attack when you're near 0 HP, you'd have to add something like FIVE times the PC level to the death threshold. That's dead at -(CON+5*level)!

What I finally realized was that there's NO way to have a death threshold number (based on CON, level, HP, or whatever) that can guarantee you'll never skip the Dying condition.

So that's the main goal of this system - if anyone reading this is comfortable going from alive to dead without skipping Dying, this system is not for you.


Stormonu - what you've described is pretty much exactly how 4e handles death&dying, without their Death Saving Throws. Their death threshold is -(total HP)/2, the highest I've ever seen in any proposed death&dying system (which to me says they're aware of these same issues, and were also trying to avoid skipping Dying).

But with Death Saving Throws there's still a good chance you could die on your own if the bad guy moves on to another PC after you've dropped (gone unconscious). Just a question of your goals for a death&dying system, really.
 

knottyprof

First Post
Back in the Day 0 HP was dead, period

Game is complicated enough why add even more rules for something that most players should avoid anyway. D&D, 1st Ed AD&D, and 2nd Ed AD&D 0 hp was dead. That is over 20 years where characters died per the rules as written. Not against the negative HP threshhold and that probably came about because most people probably had some sort of house rule anyway.

That said, I think the negative Con threshold is more than generous given the amount of wealth and magic characters normally have access to based on level for healing and death prevention matters. If I had players that continually got into this situation I would probably just house rule a Fortitude save for a single round to give other players the ability to attempt and keep the character from expiring.
 

fjw70

Adventurer
Dead at -10 was a 1e AD&D rule.

The OP seems to complicated for me. Maybe when dropped to 0 or lower roll a d6. If you roll a 6then you stabilize and are unconscious at 0. If you roll 1-5 then you are at 0 and will die in that number of rounds unless someone heals or stabilizes you. A CDG while dying kills you.
 

knottyprof

First Post
Dead at -10 was a 1e AD&D rule.

The OP seems to complicated for me. Maybe when dropped to 0 or lower roll a d6. If you roll a 6then you stabilize and are unconscious at 0. If you roll 1-5 then you are at 0 and will die in that number of rounds unless someone heals or stabilizes you. A CDG while dying kills you.

Looking through the original Player's Handbook (both original and revised) the only reference I could find regarding this is under damage and it states that when any creature reaches 0 or negative hit points it is dead (pg 107 original PHB). Searched the original DMG and found the reference under Combat (Hit Points) which does have the -10 rule, but characters do not get the chance to stabalize on their own and once -6 hp or more is reached then physical scarring or limb loss occurs. Plus character reduced below 0 are in a coma for 1d6 turns and must take a full week to recover (pg 81). Nice when the Player's Handbook contradicts the DMG. Funny how the evolution of the game kept (and enhanced the negative HP cap), but dropped the time required to recuperate and possible physical trauma that was originally implemented with the game.

IMO the hit point abstraction works in the game for the most part but when people begin to put too much stock in it from the point of coming up with complex rules dealing with levels of dying it really begins to break down in effectiveness. IP can come up with any sort of house rules desired but HPs scale with character levels already given that is the whole point of gaining hit points per level.
 

ZenFox42

First Post
To summarize the basics
Any time you would go into negative HP, you instead enter DeathCon.

While in DeathCon, you make a Death Saving Throw at the end of your round to : increase your DeathCon degree by 1, stay the same, or Stabilize

If you are Stable, you no longer make Death Saving Throws (but you are still in DeathCon).

While in DeathCon, further injuries increase your DeathCon degree and make you Dying again if you were Stable.

When you reach DeathCon4, you're dead.

Any healing restores you to that many HP, and takes you out of DeathCon, but your current DeathCon degree stays with you until you sleep.
 

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