For the sake of this thread assume the core of a character is BAB, saving throws, ability scores, HP die, class special abilities (back stab, turn undead, lay on hands, etc) plus caster ability or not. (skip race considerations for now). Lets just call this Red Box Stuff.
When thinking along those terms, as far as character classes, all that the new D&D editions (since 1ed) have done is essentially add:
Feats, which are mostly add modifiers (usually numeric) to Red Box Stuff.
Skills, which basically (other than for thief abilities) add a numeric roll system to things which used to be mostly adjudicated according to DM fiat, usually in narrative style.
Prestige classes, which are basically some combination of skills and feats and some class special abilities.
Powers, from 4e, which I am not that familiar with, but look to be mostly a merge of feats, special abilities, and spells, to one degree or another, which are mostly useful to give some advantage in combat.
3e was also an attempt to have some sort of balance between classes.
It could be argued that splat books with new prestige classes, feats, skills, etc are essentially a way for people to break the balance between the classes, make a character that excels above all others, and also a way to give your character some uniqueness in the game.
It seems many people adopt prestige classes, ignoring what I would consider role play considerations (where do you learn it, special teachers, can you 'specialize" in more than one thing by taking more than one prestige class, is the prestige class a society with RP restrictions in and of itself, etc.).
If such RP considerations are going to be ignored, and class balance will be broken, all in the pursuit of making the exact character with the exact abilities you wish to play, why not just have a classless system D&D? This will give the same result without the BS overlay of classes and balance which people just pay lip service to.
That seems to be the more likely evolution of 3e. Or at least one way for it to evolve.
Basically, 2e had something along these lines. I seem to remember a table where with XP you could "buy" certain aspects of other classes, like spell casting ability, fighter THACO, etc.
Why not just apply this to all aspects of D&D? With XP you could buy saving throw increases, BAB, a level of spell casting ability (or even the ability to cast another spell of a certain level per day) a feat, skill, or power adjustment, a special ability, etc.
Every character would be unique. Every character would be finely tuned to be exactly the character the player wants, without class limitations, level requirements, prestige classes, or any other overlay which essentially just exists to make you pay lip service to a system which people have been trying to break to their own advantage since day 1.
It would also, of course, eliminate the great multiclass debate.
An example character would look like this:
Jaroo, a character with 10000 xp.
BAB 6 at a cost of 3000 xp
Saving throws +1 Will, cost 500
Saving throw +2 Fortitude, cost 1000
Caster ability 1 first level druid spell per day, cost 350
Caster ability 3 first level wizard spells per day, cost 500 each
Special ability Lay on Hands cost 2000
Skills: 3 points move silently, cost 150
Skills 2 points hide in shadows, cost 100
Skills 4 points appraise, cost 100
Feat, Great Cleave cost 2000
Feat, Maximize spell (arcane or divine) cost 300
Total Xp 10000.
And a very unique character.
With this in mind, the whole issue of class balance is irrelevant. There are no classes. The multiclassing headaches are gone.
Any splatbooks look more like a few page "Menu" of feats, skills, powers and special abilities which you can purchase for XP. They would be simple descriptions, followed by a cost.
I personally like a class based game. We forbid all prestige classes in our campaign. We put a tight reign on feats and skills, only using those found in the core 3.0 Anything unusual must have a basis in the RP aspect of the game.
However, to the extent that 3.5 has, if not encouraged, then at least facilitated the destruction of the class based game and class balance by the additions of thousands of feats and skills and special abilities and hundreds of prestige classes, why not just have a system which is one direction on the evolutionary family tree of the natural evolution of 3.5? Why not just go classless, with a XP cost based system to design the exact character you want?
Note: as to Races, they way I look at them mechanically speaking, is that they are just package of numeric modifiers which you don't have to pay XP costs for, but you do have to pay a cost in that you are forcing a character to deal with certain roleplay restrictions/situations.
I know there are some game systems out there that take this approach (GURPS is one I believe) but none to my knowledge do it with the familiar D&D chracter class aspects and components.
Is this possible to do under the OGL?
Interested in hearing your thoughts.
But, I am not really interested in turning this into some edition war. If you dispute my viewpoint on anything I say to the extent that you want to argue any foundational premise to my overall final points, I'm not interested.
Take it to another thread.
I just want to encourage a discussion on a classless D&D based on the OGL.
Thx
When thinking along those terms, as far as character classes, all that the new D&D editions (since 1ed) have done is essentially add:
Feats, which are mostly add modifiers (usually numeric) to Red Box Stuff.
Skills, which basically (other than for thief abilities) add a numeric roll system to things which used to be mostly adjudicated according to DM fiat, usually in narrative style.
Prestige classes, which are basically some combination of skills and feats and some class special abilities.
Powers, from 4e, which I am not that familiar with, but look to be mostly a merge of feats, special abilities, and spells, to one degree or another, which are mostly useful to give some advantage in combat.
3e was also an attempt to have some sort of balance between classes.
It could be argued that splat books with new prestige classes, feats, skills, etc are essentially a way for people to break the balance between the classes, make a character that excels above all others, and also a way to give your character some uniqueness in the game.
It seems many people adopt prestige classes, ignoring what I would consider role play considerations (where do you learn it, special teachers, can you 'specialize" in more than one thing by taking more than one prestige class, is the prestige class a society with RP restrictions in and of itself, etc.).
If such RP considerations are going to be ignored, and class balance will be broken, all in the pursuit of making the exact character with the exact abilities you wish to play, why not just have a classless system D&D? This will give the same result without the BS overlay of classes and balance which people just pay lip service to.
That seems to be the more likely evolution of 3e. Or at least one way for it to evolve.
Basically, 2e had something along these lines. I seem to remember a table where with XP you could "buy" certain aspects of other classes, like spell casting ability, fighter THACO, etc.
Why not just apply this to all aspects of D&D? With XP you could buy saving throw increases, BAB, a level of spell casting ability (or even the ability to cast another spell of a certain level per day) a feat, skill, or power adjustment, a special ability, etc.
Every character would be unique. Every character would be finely tuned to be exactly the character the player wants, without class limitations, level requirements, prestige classes, or any other overlay which essentially just exists to make you pay lip service to a system which people have been trying to break to their own advantage since day 1.
It would also, of course, eliminate the great multiclass debate.
An example character would look like this:
Jaroo, a character with 10000 xp.
BAB 6 at a cost of 3000 xp
Saving throws +1 Will, cost 500
Saving throw +2 Fortitude, cost 1000
Caster ability 1 first level druid spell per day, cost 350
Caster ability 3 first level wizard spells per day, cost 500 each
Special ability Lay on Hands cost 2000
Skills: 3 points move silently, cost 150
Skills 2 points hide in shadows, cost 100
Skills 4 points appraise, cost 100
Feat, Great Cleave cost 2000
Feat, Maximize spell (arcane or divine) cost 300
Total Xp 10000.
And a very unique character.
With this in mind, the whole issue of class balance is irrelevant. There are no classes. The multiclassing headaches are gone.
Any splatbooks look more like a few page "Menu" of feats, skills, powers and special abilities which you can purchase for XP. They would be simple descriptions, followed by a cost.
I personally like a class based game. We forbid all prestige classes in our campaign. We put a tight reign on feats and skills, only using those found in the core 3.0 Anything unusual must have a basis in the RP aspect of the game.
However, to the extent that 3.5 has, if not encouraged, then at least facilitated the destruction of the class based game and class balance by the additions of thousands of feats and skills and special abilities and hundreds of prestige classes, why not just have a system which is one direction on the evolutionary family tree of the natural evolution of 3.5? Why not just go classless, with a XP cost based system to design the exact character you want?
Note: as to Races, they way I look at them mechanically speaking, is that they are just package of numeric modifiers which you don't have to pay XP costs for, but you do have to pay a cost in that you are forcing a character to deal with certain roleplay restrictions/situations.
I know there are some game systems out there that take this approach (GURPS is one I believe) but none to my knowledge do it with the familiar D&D chracter class aspects and components.
Is this possible to do under the OGL?
Interested in hearing your thoughts.
But, I am not really interested in turning this into some edition war. If you dispute my viewpoint on anything I say to the extent that you want to argue any foundational premise to my overall final points, I'm not interested.
Take it to another thread.
I just want to encourage a discussion on a classless D&D based on the OGL.
Thx
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I didn't realize what M&M was. But after consulting with the Almighty Oracle Of All Knowledge (Wikipedia) and reading their article on M&M, I see they've pretty much done what I had in mind here.
