A Discussion in Game Design: The 15 minute work day.

[Doug McCrae]

"Sure, I could have used one of those to save you 3 minutes of slogging through kobold guts, but who will be whining when the 45' long Frost-Drake comes screeching out of the sky and I'm fresh out? You will...but not for long."

Frankly I'm amazed those kobolds were living and prospering in that area at all, if frost-drakes coming screeching out of the sky on any given day is more likely than not.

The worlds we are being forced to create, by the rules of the game, stretch credulity to breaking point.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Frankly I'm amazed those kobolds were living and prospering in that area at all, if frost-drakes coming screeching out of the sky on any given day is more likely than not.

The worlds we are being forced to create, by the rules of the game, stretch credulity to breaking point.

Uh...just ran into that very setup in a published 4Ed adventure. The kobolds were either worshiping the thing or were its slaves- since I'm not the DM, I don't know for sure.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

All I'm saying is this: the 15 Minute Workday is a CLASSIC example of a YMMV kind of thing. It stems not from the rules- its the playstyle- and changing the rules to minimize its likelihood of occurring is (to me) more likely to result in unpleasant side-effects.

 

[Baumi]

This is blue-skying it a bit, but I think it would be cool if you had a system where Daily powers had to be 'unlocked'. Either by reaching milestones or by performing heroic feats. If players knew that they could really break out the big guns once they'd been in a few fights, that would really encourage them to press on.

That is so simple and absolutely brilliant! 8D

 

[Dausuul]

All I'm saying is this: the 15 Minute Workday is a CLASSIC example of a YMMV kind of thing. It stems not from the rules- its the playstyle- and changing the rules to minimize its likelihood of occurring is (to me) more likely to result in unpleasant side-effects.

No, it stems from the rules. Without a certain specific set of rules--namely, the ones that provide massive incentives to rest and no incentives not to--the 15-minute workday would not exist, and in games where such rules are not in force, it does not exist.

Some people may have a playstyle that compensates (effectively relying on the DM to create a counter-incentive), but that doesn't mean the problem arises from everyone else's playstyle.

 

[RangerWickett]

Interesting observations in this thread. It's got me thinking.

I'm always considering new house rules for my game. Now I think I want to encourage the party to keep adventuring, but to provide some justification for resting.

Maybe I'll do away with the limited healing surges per day, and instead put a cap on the number of surges per encounter. If you want to spend more surges than that during the encounter you can, but you'll take some sort of wound. You only ever need an extended rest for the purpose of recovering from these wounds.

(It's like if you keep pushing yourself to exercise, you can keep going, but you'll be sore, and possibly break something if you're not careful. Maybe you can go over the limit by 1, which lowers your defenses by 2. If you go over the limit by 2, then any critical hit that hits you in the same encounter inflicts a serious wound, like a broken arm or swollen eye.)

Daily Powers instead become Awesome Powers. To use an awesome power you have to spend an action point. You get 1 action point at the start of the first encounter between extended rests, 2 at the start of the 2nd, 3 at the 3rd, and so on. You can't use the same 'awesome power' more than once in the same encounter.

(Maybe at 11th level you get an extra 1 action point per encounter, and an extra 2 at 21st level.)

[Magic item daily powers I don't like in the first place. I'm still not sure what to do with them.]

I think this would encourage players to keep going and build up momentum.

 

[billd91]

No, it stems from the rules. Without a certain specific set of rules--namely, the ones that provide massive incentives to rest and no incentives not to--the 15-minute workday would not exist, and in games where such rules are not in force, it does not exist.

Some people may have a playstyle that compensates (effectively relying on the DM to create a counter-incentive), but that doesn't mean the problem arises from everyone else's playstyle.

But the rules also allow for those DM counter-incentives. So the remedy stems from the rules as well. Which, I think, puts it back into a play-style thing.

 

[Dausuul]

But the rules also allow for those DM counter-incentives. So the remedy stems from the rules as well. Which, I think, puts it back into a play-style thing.

If a bunch of houses are built with faulty wiring which catches fire if you run the washer and the dryer at the same time, the cause of the resulting fires is not the "laundry-style difference" of some people doing a single load of laundry and some people doing several in a batch. The cause is the wiring.

The rules set up the incentives which drive the problem. And the remedy certainly does not stem from the rules--it is merely allowed by the rules, in the same way that the houses with the bad wiring allow you to run only one load of laundry at a time.

To some extent, it's a semantic difference. However, the usual corollary of someone saying "this is a playstyle problem" is "you people shouldn't mess with the rules, either fix your substandard playstyle or live with the consequences." Which drives me up the wall--if you don't want to tinker with the rules, what the heck are you doing in a rules-tinkering thread?--so I go into battle-ready mode as soon as "playstyle problem" comes up.

 

[billd91]

To some extent, it's a semantic difference. However, the usual corollary of someone saying "this is a playstyle problem" is "you people shouldn't mess with the rules, either fix your substandard playstyle or live with the consequences." Which drives me up the wall--if you don't want to tinker with the rules, what the heck are you doing in a rules-tinkering thread?--so I go into battle-ready mode as soon as "playstyle problem" comes up.

It's a refereed role playing game in which the rules are not really intended to cover all eventualities, most particularly the specific circumstances in which the rules are applied. Play style is almost always relevant in some way even if the rules have some effect.

 

[Ariosto]

...Barbara Hambly's spellcasters are generally stingy with magic...

I have written nary a word against being "stingy with magic".

I have written a word against m-us packing crossbows.

I pointed this out to you in that very post you quoted. You repeatedly ignore what I write, and pretend that I have written what I have not!

Elric never used a crossbow that I recall. I don't think a single crossbow appeared in the whole saga! I reckon the Melnibonean an elf type, anyhow.

Elric does not have kit for sorcery with him on his wanderings, apart from the Ring of Kings.

For that matter, the Old Race of the Witch World could also be treated as elves.

An m-u with other than thrown missiles is just fine in 4e, IIRC. It's another wrench in the works, though, for 3e or old D&D.