A discussion of metagame concepts in game design

[Aldarc]

I don't think I'd go this route but I think I would come up with a different set. Game design is always fun.

Such as?

I didn't like Numenera's approach. I love Monte Cook's work in the past especially Ptolus so it saddens me to lose him to mostly his own stuff. But hey he is doing well so I wish him well. I just feel the loss on the D&Dish side of the world.

In fact I think Ptolus is the finest roleplaying product ever made that wasn't a full system.

I'm a fan of Numenera, and I have been looking over the just-released-to-backers Numenera 2: Discovery and Destiny the past few days. It's probably in my top 3 favorite settings ever created. Though I like the Cypher system, I don't love it, and there are a few things that sometimes frustrate me when it comes to character creation and customization. But I sometimes think that comes with being spoiled by Fate.

As for spells, I liked vancian because preparation is something I like. Trying to figure out the best setup for a particular adventure / encounter can be a lot of fun.

Sounds like you enjoy the metagame.

 

[pemerton]

The way I see it, if my 65-h.p. character takes a 15 h.p. hit from something the DM tells me-the-player it hits for 15 and I-in-character wince and make it clear I felt that. When I'm down to 25 I can say in character I'm starting to fade a bit; my character obviously doesn't know the numbers but does know she's taking a pounding. After a combat when I'm at 45 out of 65 (in a system with slow natural healing!) and a healer asks me how I'm doing, in character I can say "There's others worse off, I'll be fine; but I did take a hit or two."

A "pounding" that doesn't slow her or impede her performance in any way.

And what does "I did take a hit or two" mean when your PC has been fighting a dragon? It only got in a couple of bites?!

 

[Nytmare]

On Attributes: the attributes in In a Wicked Age are interesting:

* Covertly
* Direclty
* For myself
* For others
* With love
* With violence

These are rated with dice, and every action uses two of them for its resolution.

I like that a lot, and it brought to mind the old Everway attributes of Earth, Air, Fire and Water. If I remember correctly earth was basically constitution, air was intelligence, fire was strength, and water was perception, but then you'd combine them. So if you were arguing angrily, you'd use a combination of fire and air, but if you were trying to calmly persuade someone to see your point, you'd use air and water.

 

[Nytmare]

This thread has also reminded me a lot about the heated arguments my college gaming club used to get into when 3rd Ed came out about how everyone was cheating (I think I only started hearing the term metagaming two or three years later) if they didn't roll up their stats 3D6 straight down the attribute list.

We had a pretty strong contingent of people who felt that the only way to make a character was to come up with a character concept, roll the dice, and then play that character as rolled because that was what they felt properly imitated reality.

 

[Emerikol]

I think this is quite an idiosyncratic view.

I would say that the reality of the D&D world is that people suffer light, serious and critical wounds, suffer maiming (which requires Regeneration to heal), and have mystical "life essence" which some undead can drain and which requires Restoration to restore.

Nothing in an D&D rulebook or setting has ever made me think that hit points are the reality of wellbeing and injury in the gameworld.

I'm probably more of a rules as physics kind of guy. There seems to be a correlation between my different views but not a necessary correlation.

 

[Emerikol]

That is indeed the problem of using a level system but it is much the same in 1e you go up one whole level in one class at a time.

You may be confusing that with 3e. In 1e, you divide all x.p. across each of your classes as you gain them. Typically when you hit a new level in one class your others are not far behind. Typically a 7/7 character would be the same as a 10 level single class character advancement wise.

 

[Emerikol]

Sounds like you enjoy the metagame.

No. Vancian casting is not metagame. It's magic. My characters really do prepare their spells. In 1e they memorized their spell book. This was an in game activity. When they cast the spells they were no longer available. You might not like the system but everything you don't like doesn't just become metagame. So planning out which spells you will prepare is very much an in game activity that the character does. Since the DM doesn't provide any info outside what the character knows, the player is acting on character info alone when they choose spells.

 

[Emerikol]

A "pounding" that doesn't slow her or impede her performance in any way.

And what does "I did take a hit or two" mean when your PC has been fighting a dragon? It only got in a couple of bites?!

I see it Lanefan's way too. It's abstracted in my game too just not as abstracted as your game. Dragon's probably bend the reality to the breaking point in both our approaches.

 

[Emerikol]

This thread has also reminded me a lot about the heated arguments my college gaming club used to get into when 3rd Ed came out about how everyone was cheating (I think I only started hearing the term metagaming a two or three later) if they didn't roll up their stats 3D6 straight down the attribute list.

We had a pretty strong contingent of people who felt that the only way to make a character was to come up with a character concept, roll the dice, and then play that character as rolled because that was what they felt properly imitated reality.

They are tastes no doubt but they don't necessarily overlap. I've used 4d6 drop the lowest arrange as you like since 1e. Nowadays though I've realized there ought to be a better way that still gets you a decent score in your prime attribute but not always a top score. I also hate dump stats. I half wish those could be rolled separately.

So yeah how you generate attributes is a topic many have debated for years. Not related to metagaming but obviously people from both groups overlap (as they do with most game elements). Is there a correlation? Maybe.

 

[Lanefan]

A "pounding" that doesn't slow her or impede her performance in any way.

Which makes sense. At 25 of 65 you're like an athlete in a full-contact sport (being Canadian, obviously ice hockey is my go-to example) 2/3 of the way through the game - you've picked up some bruises and maybe lost a tooth, and are certainly a little fatigued, but you've still got enough left in the tank that you won't be an anchor on your teammates in the third period: you can play as well as your usual for a while yet.

And what does "I did take a hit or two" mean when your PC has been fighting a dragon? It only got in a couple of bites?!

Or wing buffets, or claw scratches - maybe I even got clipped by its breath weapon. The "hit or two" would have, in the fiction, been whatever caused the damage that took me from 65 to 40 or whatever.

Lan-"with my luck, some of that damage would also have come from my own allies fumbling into me or catching me in their blast spells"-efan