A discussion of metagame concepts in game design

[Maxperson]

Of course not. But I live in a real world with properties that are mind-independent. Fairy stories, though, are about imaginary worlds.

When Aristotle tells a fairy story about a giant in a castle on a cloud, does the giants' castle generate a gravitational field proportionate to its mass? Was Aristotle telling a story about universal gravitation even though he didn't know of it?

Besides making a point that fairy stories aren't real, my main point is that the falling of unsupported things to the earth doesn't prove that gravity exists. The fact that fire needs fuel isn't what shows that combustion is oxidation, or that thermodynamics apply. In fact, D&D clearly isn't bound by thermodynamics, given the various processes that gods, sorcerers etc engage in!

You just accused me of insulting you by saying things like you ignore half the story, cutting out things that prove you wrong. Not more than a few posts later, look, you did it again. You plan on addressing the sage table that proves that physics, chemistry and biology are part of the D&D world?

The truth is the ultimate defense. If it's true, it's not an insult.

 

[Shasarak]

The rest of the whole debate is off topic and really doesn't matter. I'm not making Second Wind and Action Surge into magical powers. It's might've worked for a Paladin (at least Action Surge anyway). Second Wind runs afoul of my healing preferences in ways beyond just my metagame complaint.

Of course dont call it magic, that would be dumb. You need a name that people would associate with Martial characters, like Martial powers. The you could use Martial powers in a Antimagic zone, they could not be dispelled and there is a plausible reason why your character can only choose to use them a certain number of times per day.

 

[Shasarak]

So what's your point? That a world in which living things are magically created is one that follows the same scientific law as the real world?

That a Giant is not a big human.

 

[pemerton]

You just accused me of insulting you by saying things like you ignore half the story, cutting out things that prove you wrong. Not more than a few posts later, look, you did it again. You plan on addressing the sage table that proves that physics, chemistry and biology are part of the D&D world?

Aristotle had a book called Physics. Does that mean that he wrote about universal gravitation?

Sages in D&D might study physics. That doesn't show that they are studying the body of knowledge that is currently taught in schools and universities under that label; or writing books about tenser calculus, the nuclear forces, or universal gravitation. Likewise (with approriate substitutions) for biology and chemistry.

Given the contents of the AD&D MM, I find it hard to envisage a Gygaxian sage whose specialisation is biology doing anything but scoff at the notions put forward in On the Origins of Species.

The great thing about all RPG's not just D&D (but focusing there) is that room exists in how the rules are written and executed during play such that if you wanted to, you very well could make the laws of thermodynamics work within the scope of a D&D game using RAW.

I've got doubts about that, because I don't see how magical fireballs are consistent with thermodynamics.

But even if you're right, you cold if you wanted to doesn't entail the gameworld defaults to that.

 

[pemerton]

a Giant is not a big human.

The Greeks and the Vikings (and many others) told stories about giants.

Here are two possibilities:

(1) They were telling stories about beings who - despite, in the stories, seeming by all accounts to be big humans - really were not big humans, but were some other sort of thing that the Greeks and Vikings and others knew nothing about and never tried to describe;

(2) They were telling stories about big humans, and not imagining the world of those big humans to be constrained by considerations (like the limits of human biology relative to size) that they didn't even know about.

I know which possibility I think produces a more coherent conception of imagination and storytelling.

 

[Maxperson]

Aristotle had a book called Physics. Does that mean that he wrote about universal gravitation?

Sages in D&D might study physics. That doesn't show that they are studying the body of knowledge that is currently taught in schools and universities under that label; or writing books about tenser calculus, the nuclear forces, or universal gravitation. Likewise (with approriate substitutions) for biology and chemistry.

By that logic we aren't studying physics now. In 2000 years our knowledge of "physics" will dwarf what we now know, so they will be studying physics. We only have books called physics, just like Aristotle.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Aristotle had a book called Physics. Does that mean that he wrote about universal gravitation?

Sages in D&D might study physics. That doesn't show that they are studying the body of knowledge that is currently taught in schools and universities under that label; or writing books about tenser calculus, the nuclear forces, or universal gravitation. Likewise (with approriate substitutions) for biology and chemistry.

Given the contents of the AD&D MM, I find it hard to envisage a Gygaxian sage whose specialisation is biology doing anything but scoff at the notions put forward in On the Origins of Species.

I've got doubts about that, because I don't see how magical fireballs are consistent with thermodynamics.

But even if you're right, you cold if you wanted to doesn't entail the gameworld defaults to that.

Lets pretend the world has all of the tropes of the standard fantasy realm and follows a similar path to the understanding of science back in the day.. for the sake of conversation.

Elements: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Void (eastern concept)

Then lets assume there's a good amount of stuff that medieval folks generally don't know about, but some may be playing with.

Fluid dynamics (Colisseum), Thermodynamics, Metallurgy, Chemistry (Forging Steel) etc.

All of this behaves as you would believe it would in the real world.

Last, add magic.

The only definition for magic that you need is "A force that can modify and maintain the natural order of things or modify and maintain an unnatural order of things." It can come from wherever you want it to, it can be explained away as fluff, but in order to fit in the D&D universe it needs to be a recognized thing that the enlightened races and natural world can manipulate if all the right conditions are met.

So if you need to figure out a way where a mage could throw a fireball.. that's what magic allows. it supercedes the basic laws of physics but it's not easy to make permanent. Specific rules for that can exist in your game.

 

[Lanefan]

Lets pretend the world has all of the tropes of the standard fantasy realm and follows a similar path to the understanding of science back in the day.. for the sake of conversation.

Elements: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Void (eastern concept)

Then lets assume there's a good amount of stuff that medieval folks generally don't know about, but some may be playing with.

Fluid dynamics (Colisseum), Thermodynamics, Metallurgy, Chemistry (Forging Steel) etc.

All of this behaves as you would believe it would in the real world.

Last, add magic.

The only definition for magic that you need is "A force that can modify and maintain the natural order of things or modify and maintain an unnatural order of things." It can come from wherever you want it to, it can be explained away as fluff, but in order to fit in the D&D universe it needs to be a recognized thing that the enlightened races and natural world can manipulate if all the right conditions are met.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the typical D&D setting kind of assumes a more enlightened and less restricted academic community than our real-world medieval society had, which means it's entirely reasonable to have studies of (some of?) the sciences be more advanced than what we had in the middle ages.

Now their studies might not necessarily have led them to what we today consider the correct conclusions, but that's not the point. The point is that if someone becaue curious about how or why something did what it did then it could be studied....and in the case of a species like Elves, those studies could go on for a very long time.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the typical D&D setting kind of assumes a more enlightened and less restricted academic community than our real-world medieval society had, which means it's entirely reasonable to have studies of (some of?) the sciences be more advanced than what we had in the middle ages.

Now their studies might not necessarily have led them to what we today consider the correct conclusions, but that's not the point. The point is that if someone becaue curious about how or why something did what it did then it could be studied....and in the case of a species like Elves, those studies could go on for a very long time.

Agreed completely.

I found that for balance reasons between races considering exactly this, that it was very important to have a history where there was extensive conflict and parlay or we'd have a situation where elves were superior in every tangible way.

 

[Emerikol]

Of course dont call it magic, that would be dumb. You need a name that people would associate with Martial characters, like Martial powers. The you could use Martial powers in a Antimagic zone, they could not be dispelled and there is a plausible reason why your character can only choose to use them a certain number of times per day.

You said make them up but you didn't give me the plausible reason? Assuming now magic is involved what is the reason for martial "powers".