A Dozen Crossbows Aimed at You ..

[Flexor the Mighty!]

To be honest it isn't that subtle. I'm referring to heroic levels of combat ability, not heroic character or heroic deeds of a different sort.

 

[Delta]

It worked for Batman.

And Rambo.

 

[JoeGKushner]

So, we're defining "true hero" as "able to beat up cops with impugnity?"

Well, who are we playing the game for? The GM whose afraid the players will run around rampant or the players who want to play their characters accroding to the RAW?

"Yeah, I know you've worked hard on your character, but man, you took out a buncha 2nd level guards man! You're a mass murderer!"

I think combat ability is being vastly confused with character purpose.

 

[Delta]

A PC is more than Joe Schmoe when they can do things like kill an undead creature that could wipe out a whole family with no trouble (like a ghoul), survive the attack of a creature that could instantly kill a lesser individual (like a medusa) or work together to defeat threats to an entire kingdom (like a dragon or demon).

There's an issue of power-calculus consistency (which has been mentioned a few times in the thread, but pro-5th-level guards posters haven't responded to date). Consider PC heroes (A), a normal squad of orcs (B) as per MM (or hobgoblins or dwarves or elves), and a normal squad of town guards (C).

Then answer the following. Who is more dangerous: A or B? B or C? C or A? And, are the answers consistent or contradictory?

 

[Numion]

And, again, you measure this by the ability to be able to beat up cops?

Nope. But in media heroes are usually required when the standard safeguards that a society has have failed. Someone more capable is required.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Well, who are we playing the game for? The GM whose afraid the players will run around rampant or the players who want to play their characters accroding to the RAW?

Since most people on this thread are choosing to skip over the part of the DMG where there are higher level NPCs than just level 2 warriors in town, I'd say the RAW card isn't the one they're playing.

"Yeah, I know you've worked hard on your character, but man, you took out a buncha 2nd level guards man! You're a mass murderer!"

That's not what I'm saying. It's never been what I've been saying.

The situation outlined by the OP is a nonsense situation that will not occur in the RAW unless these characters are rampaging through hamlets and villages only. In any bigger area, there will be higher level NPCs available and unless these Dragonball Z extras have been adventuring with masks over their heads, everyone's going to know who they are, and the authorities are going to send more impressive characters at them.

Sending level 2 warriors at them is not only not what's in the RAW, it's just catering to the most nonsensical sort of power fantasy.

Yes, the players have "worked hard" for their characters, but throwing nonsense situation at them just to stroke their ego doesn't seem to be much of a reward and makes me question how much "work" was actually involved.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Nope. But in media heroes are usually required when the standard safeguards that a society has have failed. Someone more capable is required.

Yes, I know. That's not what anyone else is saying. In fact, they're saying the converse: Level 15 player characters not only should be able to run riot over communities, it's offensive DM fiat if anyone other than a level 2 warrior with a rusty fork shows up to stop them.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

There's an issue of power-calculus consistency (which has been mentioned a few times in the thread, but pro-5th-level guards posters haven't responded to date). Consider PC heroes (A), a normal squad of orcs (B) as per MM (or hobgoblins or dwarves or elves), and a normal squad of town guards (C).

Then answer the following. Who is more dangerous: A or B? B or C? C or A? And, are the answers consistent or contradictory?

It's a false premise, still.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Yes, the players have "worked hard" for their characters, but throwing nonsense situation at them just to stroke their ego doesn't seem to be much of a reward and makes me question how much "work" was actually involved.

And here I thought the OP was trying to illustrate how silly the whole situation was.

Would you ever have high level characters have 'freebies'? i.e. encounters that they were way too qualified for but they happened to be there?

Would the situations of 'high level characters should have some vulnerabilities' be present in the same context if it was a pit fiend being surrounded by a bunch of 2nd level guards? An elder red wyrm dragon?

Just remember, if characters can go toe to toe with Orcus (CR 21 right?), why should a buncha 2nd level guards bother him? Because it's "realistic"?

Go read some old S&S by Fritz Lieber where Fafrd and the Grey Mouser run through an assassins/thieves guild with no magic items and wipe out the guild. Then we'll talk about properly representing the 'low' magic part of it with high level characters.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Just remember, if characters can go toe to toe with Orcus (CR 21 right?), why should a buncha 2nd level guards bother him? Because it's "realistic"?

I'm not going to defend something THAT I'M NOT SAYING.

Go read some old S&S by Fritz Lieber where Fafrd and the Grey Mouser run through an assassins/thieves guild with no magic items and wipe out the guild. Then we'll talk about properly representing the 'low' magic part of it with high level characters.

Go read my posts and then we'll talk about you deflating arguments that I'm not making and have never made on this thread.