JoeGKushner
Adventurer
Whizbang Dustyboots said:
I'm just addressing the OP that high level characters according to the RAW will walk all over almost any number of low level characters, especially those in NPC classes.
A Dozen Crossbows Aimed at You ..
- Thread starter Numion
- Start date
I'm just addressing the OP that high level characters according to the RAW will walk all over almost any number of low level characters, especially those in NPC classes.
Flexor the Mighty!
18/100 Strength!
Whizbang Dustyboots said:
Actually that is pretty much what I said in my post up above.
Imagicka
Explorer
Greetings...
Well, let me quote you something from my game...
But let me tell you why I came to this rational. It was totally based on the numbers. At tenth level a character is pretty much a capable person. You want someone who is going to be able to take on a given task and accomplish it almost 100% of the time. Now, most things that people have to do in their daily life are going to accomplished against a DC of 15. So, even taking a 10, your going to want to be at least level 2. But most of the problems that people face, when they have to deal challenges isn't going to have to face a DC of 15. More like 20. Who do you want tackling those problems? Who do you want as your leader?
Do you want to go to a 1st level cobbler who going to make you a pair of shoes successfully 50% of the time? Or do you expect him to get the job done, right, the first time? I looked at the numbers that pretty much every character becomes capable of taking on tasks such as... building a house, a boat, making a pair of boots... dealing with a bunch of goblins... a dragon... or whatever. If dragons and other monsters are a part of your world, what to keep them from overrunning the civilized places? Hopefully the leaders are going to be powerful enough, or have regular access to powerful troops that deal with these kind of problems.
If your world is such that any particularly powerful monster/creature could take over a village or city, because there aren't high-level NPCs there to deal with typical high-level problems... then there is something squirrely about how the world is designed.
What makes the PCs think that they are the first or only people decide to become adventurers? Do you want 90% of your city-guard slaughtered by lesser demon that has be accidently/intentionally summoned by secretive mage who accidently let it get out of his control? What city has that kind of money to replace city-guards because they are getting slaughtered like turkeys a week before thanksgiving? What powers-that-be would be stupid enough not to realize that can save themselves lots of grief, time and money by just making sure that their law-enforcement is well-trained and capable of taking on problems such as brigands, raiding orcs, the occational lesser demon, or a rampaging golem?
If the world is such that you don't need your guards to be well trained, that you never have to face problems such that half your city-guard gets slaughtered because a PC decided to go postal. That all your policing needs can be met by a bunch of inexperienced 2nd level warriors... well... that's great. Just not logical to me... but does sound like a great place to visit since it's evident they don't have any crime or problems.
Flexor the Mighty! said:
Well, let me quote you something from my game...
Sorry about the formatting, It looks like I can't use a table here.
But let me tell you why I came to this rational. It was totally based on the numbers. At tenth level a character is pretty much a capable person. You want someone who is going to be able to take on a given task and accomplish it almost 100% of the time. Now, most things that people have to do in their daily life are going to accomplished against a DC of 15. So, even taking a 10, your going to want to be at least level 2. But most of the problems that people face, when they have to deal challenges isn't going to have to face a DC of 15. More like 20. Who do you want tackling those problems? Who do you want as your leader?
Do you want to go to a 1st level cobbler who going to make you a pair of shoes successfully 50% of the time? Or do you expect him to get the job done, right, the first time? I looked at the numbers that pretty much every character becomes capable of taking on tasks such as... building a house, a boat, making a pair of boots... dealing with a bunch of goblins... a dragon... or whatever. If dragons and other monsters are a part of your world, what to keep them from overrunning the civilized places? Hopefully the leaders are going to be powerful enough, or have regular access to powerful troops that deal with these kind of problems.
If your world is such that any particularly powerful monster/creature could take over a village or city, because there aren't high-level NPCs there to deal with typical high-level problems... then there is something squirrely about how the world is designed.
What makes the PCs think that they are the first or only people decide to become adventurers? Do you want 90% of your city-guard slaughtered by lesser demon that has be accidently/intentionally summoned by secretive mage who accidently let it get out of his control? What city has that kind of money to replace city-guards because they are getting slaughtered like turkeys a week before thanksgiving? What powers-that-be would be stupid enough not to realize that can save themselves lots of grief, time and money by just making sure that their law-enforcement is well-trained and capable of taking on problems such as brigands, raiding orcs, the occational lesser demon, or a rampaging golem?
If the world is such that you don't need your guards to be well trained, that you never have to face problems such that half your city-guard gets slaughtered because a PC decided to go postal. That all your policing needs can be met by a bunch of inexperienced 2nd level warriors... well... that's great. Just not logical to me... but does sound like a great place to visit since it's evident they don't have any crime or problems.
Imagicka
Explorer
But isn't that the point? Do you want to live somewhere where your protection is dependant upon a number of wandering adventurers who hopefully will be in town to be able to called upon to solve any of your policing/protection problems?Flexor the Mighty! said:
"Hey Flexor, it's a good thing we have all this money in the city coffers so we can pay any adventurers that come along. I hear that crazy wizard in the Gladehill section of town has summoned another dæmon! You better make sure that we have at least 10,000gp on hand, I hear that it's at least as powerful as the last one! -- I just sure hope that no one else finds about this money we got to pay them."
Flexor the Mighty!
18/100 Strength!
Numion said:
Beat me to it. If I told my players that they need to game for 6-9 months and gain 10+ levels just to be as good as Joe the City Watch guy...well I'd lose players quick. Hell I'd revolt and quit my own game.
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
By the definition of the folks on this thread, the places you'd want to be an adventurer aren't standing any more, since they only have level 2 warriors protecting their hamlet or thorp and the last crew of high level characters who blew through leveled it, since everyone in the campaign world is too stupid to take reasonable precautions to defend themselves.Numion said:
Raven Crowking
First Post
I agree that, if you are going to include rules that allow people to "get the drop" on other people, then those rules should apply to bugbears as well as to watchmen. But, the real question is, so what?
Again, if NPCs have the ability to get the drop on PCs, it follows that PCs can get the drop on NPCs. And, again, so what?
It's fully okay for a game to reward careful thought and planning. So long as the rules are clear, and apply both ways, I don't see this as a problem.
As for higher-level guards than 2nd, that is fully supported by my reading of the DMG as well. Of course, I nerfed the NPC classes a bit to make the PC classes shinier. Still, the average watch patrol in a large city probably consists of better than 2nd level warriors, and they probably know the notorious/famous PCs by name or sight, so they aren't going to send their least trained crew.
A world in which the inhabitants have no means to deal with the basic, common, and recurring problems that they face is simply not believable. Either high powered magic and characters are rare (and hence not a common problem), or they are not (and hence communities have to create plans for dealing with them). It is only games where high-powered magic and characters are everywhere, but all the guards are 1st- and 2nd-level mooks, that leave one wondering how anyone survives at all.
(Again, this is as true for orc colonies as it is for humans.)
Flexor's question about when the PCs get to be considered heroic is, IMHO, purely a question of scale, not a question of ethics. However, please note that there is an heroic ideal that focuses on more ordinary people doing things because it falls their way, or because they have to be done. A PC can be heroic without being an anime superhero.
And, even if the PCs are Batman-level superheroes, a concerted effort by the GCPD in Batman: Mask of the Phantasm certainly leaves Batman a little worse for the wear.
A bit off-topic, but I couldn't resist: You do know that this is a relevant statement to this thread as well: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=176306 ?
RC
Again, if NPCs have the ability to get the drop on PCs, it follows that PCs can get the drop on NPCs. And, again, so what?
It's fully okay for a game to reward careful thought and planning. So long as the rules are clear, and apply both ways, I don't see this as a problem.
As for higher-level guards than 2nd, that is fully supported by my reading of the DMG as well. Of course, I nerfed the NPC classes a bit to make the PC classes shinier. Still, the average watch patrol in a large city probably consists of better than 2nd level warriors, and they probably know the notorious/famous PCs by name or sight, so they aren't going to send their least trained crew.
A world in which the inhabitants have no means to deal with the basic, common, and recurring problems that they face is simply not believable. Either high powered magic and characters are rare (and hence not a common problem), or they are not (and hence communities have to create plans for dealing with them). It is only games where high-powered magic and characters are everywhere, but all the guards are 1st- and 2nd-level mooks, that leave one wondering how anyone survives at all.
(Again, this is as true for orc colonies as it is for humans.)
Flexor's question about when the PCs get to be considered heroic is, IMHO, purely a question of scale, not a question of ethics. However, please note that there is an heroic ideal that focuses on more ordinary people doing things because it falls their way, or because they have to be done. A PC can be heroic without being an anime superhero.
And, even if the PCs are Batman-level superheroes, a concerted effort by the GCPD in Batman: Mask of the Phantasm certainly leaves Batman a little worse for the wear.
ThoughtBubble said:
A bit off-topic, but I couldn't resist: You do know that this is a relevant statement to this thread as well: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=176306 ?
RC
Last edited:
Raven Crowking
First Post
Victim said:
Batman in Mask of the Phantasm is level 8 in the flashbacks and level 15 in the present portion of the movie. In Justice League, Batman is epic level.
I know; I looked at his character sheet when his player went to get a Mountain Dew.
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