A Dozen Crossbows Aimed at You ..

[Victim]

To make a dangerous analogy to the real world, not every country has ICBMs, carrier battle groups, state of the art fighters, etc. They can't usually afford to buy them, can't usually make them, will likely have problems maintaining them, etc.

Another issue is that if you do have a bunch of high level guards, what keeps them from taking over? Maybe it is better not to have all those powerful guards around in between crises, raking in pay for handling low level tasks and maybe getting ideas...

Of course, a city may have other means of defense besides high level guys. A foresighted ruler or ally in the past may have bound some guardian outsiders to help defend the city against major threats, left a stockpile of high level scrolls that low level casters might be able to use to help even the odds, etc. Of course, once you lose that kind of defense, you have to start over.

 

[lukelightning]

Everyone knows that if you really want to intimidate/capture the PCs, you send a single toughie at them, perhaps a paladin monk in a blue cloak.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Yeah, but high level characters of any class aren't going to be rank-and-file watchmen or city guards.

I agree. But anyone who's level 15 will be a known quantity and the moment they're recognized, they won't be sending the rank and file to deal with them.

"Hey, Bob, there's a giant green guy identical to the Hulk tearing up the local bar. I'm sure it has to be another giant green superstrong guy. Go grab the rookies and the short-timers and go ask him to be on his way, would you?"

If level 15s are causing trouble in the city, they're going to see the cream of the crop responding to the threat.

Yes, a token pack of level 2 guards will get their clocks cleaned by a group of level 15s. But that situation should never arise in any campaign with even a nodding acquaintance with realism.

 

[Doomhawk]

If it's a random watch patrol of 1st- and 2nd-level warriors, with maybe a Ftr3 for a captain, they're gonna get creamed. Oh, sure, if the PC doesn't have on his armor or anything, and has to rely on just his Dex bonus and his trusty Ring of Protection, that AC of 15 will see him eat more than a few crossbow shots. But he'll still come out on top. And if he's ready, then the guards had better hope he's got a Merciful weapon.

But that doesn't mean a high-level character can't be stopped by lower-level characters. It doesn't require four hundred grapplers, either. A slightly better-trained and -equipped group, specialized in dealing with such threats, can be a serious problem for even very high-level characters.
Consider a 2nd-level Marshal with a Rod of Sure Striking, and sixteen 2nd-level warriors clustered into the adjacent spaces. An elite group? Sure, but they're SWAT elite, not MIB elite. Those sixteen fighters have Mighty (+1) Composite Longbows, Str 12 and Dex 13 (nonelite array) and Weapon Focus. The Marshal hands them each three arrows that he just used an Oil of Magic Weapon on (50gp - hell, we'll use a CL 5 Oil for 250 gp, in case of a long standoff). Activate the Rod and let fly, with +16 to hit and doing 1d8+2 each. If our PC is at his unprepared AC 15, he's eating over 100 damage before he can even move. Even if he's got his Full Plate +4 on, his AC 27 will still take hits from half of them. If the guards expect area-effects, they can spread out and use Potions of True Strike instead (and allowing them to hit even the fully-buffed monk).
And this is a group consisting entirely of 2nd-level characters, well within their wealth allowance. Any large town could easily train or hire such a squad. A larger city can field more of them, better-trained and better-equipped. If a PC breaks the law in that city, he'd better get out of sight quick or get ready to surrender.

 

[Victim]

Well, they wouldn't send low level guards with the expectation of them defeating the adventurers. That doesn't mean they wouldn't get sent in though. Maybe the leaders want to keep the badass guards close at hand in case the adventurers redeploy to cut off the head - if they send out the kill team and the characters outmanuever it there could be serious trouble. Or maybe they need time to get their swat team out of bed or buffed up.

It could be a diplomatic ploy. Jumping the 15th level characters with your own high level guys might be the most effective way to capture/kill them, but it's also going to guarantee a major fight which could cause lots of damage or kill some of your own rare, and powerful guys. If the low level guys can talk the adventurers into calming down or leaving, then you "win" without the big downside risk.

Finally, some people are going to use the reputation of high level characters to try to run scams.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Yes, a token pack of level 2 guards will get their clocks cleaned by a group of level 15s. But that situation should never arise in any campaign with even a nodding acquaintance with realism.

There are some widely varying opinions on what constitutes "the cream of the crop" in a typical town or city. I'm of the opinion that high-level characters are VERY RARE. In my mind, only a major king's vizier and elite bodyguards and a major church's high priest might approach 15th-level PCs in power, and even there (like Aragorn & crew in Theoden's Hall) the PCs might prevail easily. Characters of this level are legends. They are superhuman. They are among the greatest heroes on earth, surpassed by the gods and by the greatest heroes of the past. If you have ANY 12th-level guardsmen in your game world, the PCs should know about them with Legend Lore, bardic knowledge, or decent Knowledge checks ("The city guard here once defeated a force of 500 orcs, 50 ogres, and 5 hill giants, with the captain of the guard single-handedly killing two of the giants. The Church of Heironeous in this city is led by Calath, who has raised the dead in the past and is widely considered to be a candidate for High Priest if he moves to the capital. The archmage Lagoth Zanta, slayer of the dragon Wromthax, maintains a tower at the edge of the city.")

Second, even though they're legendary, I'm doubtful that the PCs would necessarily be recognized if they didn't want to be. This isn't the modern world. Information travels by storytellers, not TV, so their faces won't be known everywhere. Cosmetic details change ("Who is this warrior wearing red dragonhide armor? We've never heard of such a man"). Magic provides disguises. HOW will they be recognized? If they are traveling openly proclaiming who they are, certainly the town guard will exercise caution in dealing with them, but they might simply be unable to stop them for lack of power. For a small city, sending the very best they have might mean their 2 11th-level warriors, 4 5th-level warriors, and a few of the PC (mercenary) types they recruited.

Third, it's perfectly reasonable for 15th-level PCs to encounter 2nd-level warriors. If I run "Keep on the Borderlands" for my players at level 2, then they decide to take it over when they're level 15, I'm not going to change the keep's inhabitants. The men-at-arms ARE level 1. The corporal of the watch is Ftr2, the bailiff is Ftr3, the jewel merchant's guards are Ftr2, etc. The Castellan is Ftr6.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Preach it, Brother!

Also, i'll note that IMX, PCs don't walk around announcing their identity. My PCs have long histories of using aliases, changing names at a whim, or simply all going disguised as merchants, tinkers, or pilgrims. In a world that features divination spells and such, it just makes sense to do so.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

If the guards expect area-effects, they can spread out and use Potions of True Strike instead (and allowing them to hit even the fully-buffed monk).

While most of what you said is quite interesting, I did want to point out that there's a reason there are no Potions of True Strike in the DMG -- spells with a range of "personal" cannot be made into potions. I see some pretty good game balance reasons for this.

Looking at the DMGII, the Rod of Sure Striking is an extremely powerful item for its price, given how Armor Class is the major defense for most BBEG. A must-have for any party or city that has a friendly wizard of 9th level and the Craft Rod.

How do you get 16 archers into the 8 spaces adjacent to the Marshal?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

There are some widely varying opinions on what constitutes "the cream of the crop" in a typical town or city.

This is true. For the purposes of this discussion, I can only go off the RAW, since every campaign is different, and trying to tell someone what the demographics should be like in their game is a fool's errand. (I wouldn't use Shark's demographics, for instance, but he's well thought-of here and I suspect he has plenty of people who use his system.)

In the RAW, as pointed out up-thread, you will have NPCs in larger communities who are much closer in level to the titular level 15 adventurers. They probably won't be corporals in the city guard, pulling drunk-and-disorderly duty on the night shift. But even those not affiliated with the local government are certainly in contact with the powers that be, and when that dragonne lands in the square on Market Day or dopplegangers take over the Blacksmiths Guild or level 15th adventurers start tearing up the town, they'll be called in as soon as word of the threat reaches those with the ability to call out the "big guns."

Second, even though they're legendary, I'm doubtful that the PCs would necessarily be recognized if they didn't want to be. This isn't the modern world. Information travels by storytellers, not TV, so their faces won't be known everywhere.

If you were the king and there was a group of thugs capable of killing a dragon, would you spend energy finding out who these folks are, what they look like and every other bit of available information? I suspect you would and that you'd make this information available to your agents so that, if nothing else, you could monitor what said thugs are up to. (They could be planning on coming after the throne one day, after all.)

But yes, if they wanted to, the adventurers could disguise themselves. I don't recall that being part of the originally posited scenario, but yes, it's certainly possible and almost certainly successful, unless they're, say, shaking down Elminster's nephew's tavern or something.

Third, it's perfectly reasonable for 15th-level PCs to encounter 2nd-level warriors. If I run "Keep on the Borderlands" for my players at level 2, then they decide to take it over when they're level 15, I'm not going to change the keep's inhabitants. The men-at-arms ARE level 1. The corporal of the watch is Ftr2, the bailiff is Ftr3, the jewel merchant's guards are Ftr2, etc. The Castellan is Ftr6.

You're arguing against a point I didn't make: Of course, if that's all that's available in a community, that's all that they're going to see.

My argument is with the notion that nowhere in the world will they encounter anyone higher level representing the authorities.

 

[Numion]

But that situation should never arise in any campaign with even a nodding acquaintance with realism.

Any number of reasons:

1) PCs don't announce their badassery. Maybe disguised.
2) PCs are new to the place - they are unknown, and have pocketed their 21 ioun stones.
3) It's in the interest of the powers that be that any possible conflict will end up in the guards getting reamed ("Just look at the damage done by destructive magic - here's my proposition to outlaw non-sanctioned magic. It's surely justified.")
4) The leaders are actually incompetent - or do you find that unrealistic?
5) etc..

I would say that a world where the PCs can't blend into the crowd is pretty unrealistic.

Piratecat handled this well in his story hour. People came to detain high-level PCs, but didn't cuff them or even lock the prison door. They knew there was little they could do to stop the PCs in case they wanted to escape, so the guards just wanted to keep the property damage to a minimum. IIRC, some of the group didn't even escape due to political reasons.

That's a bit more elegant solution than having the PCs detained or crying and detained, no matter the level.