A Dozen Crossbows Aimed at You ..

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I don't disagree that player characters can disguise themselves. Am I hitting Preview and not Post or something?

 

[Numion]

If you were the king and there was a group of thugs capable of killing a dragon, would you spend energy finding out who these folks are, what they look like and every other bit of available information? I suspect you would and that you'd make this information available to your agents so that, if nothing else, you could monitor what said thugs are up to. (They could be planning on coming after the throne one day, after all.)

If it was that easy, surely no D&D city would have for example a high-level rogue as the head of a thieves guild. The King would be on to the geezer and have his 14th level guard commander and the other 10+ level NPCs (that he has on a hotline in case of ADTT (adventurers destroying the town)) arrest the dude.

But yes, if they wanted to, the adventurers could disguise themselves. I don't recall that being part of the originally posited scenario, but yes, it's certainly possible and almost certainly successful, unless they're, say, shaking down Elminster's nephew's tavern or something.

That is actually of inconsequence to the original scenario. It's just low-level guards trying to arrest high-level PCs. Whether the PCs had disguise or not doesn't matter.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

If it was that easy, surely no D&D city would have for example a high-level rogue as the head of a thieves guild. The King would be on to the geezer and have his 14th level guard commander and the other 10+ level NPCs (that he has on a hotline in case of ADTT (adventurers destroying the town)) arrest the dude.

I think dragonslayers (for instance) tend to spend a lot less time worrying about their identities being known than an ambitious guild thief would. That amulet of non-detection the thief is wearing is a slot better served by equipment that helps adventurers kick butt and take names much of the time.

Anyway, I think your question has been pretty much answered:

Without special rules, it's unlikely that level 2 guards can pose any sort of physical threat to level 15 adventurers. My own quibble is with sending out the level 2 posse to begin with, but if the scenario you outlined was from a campaign, that's really the least of the objectional issues.

 

[dog45]

Reminds me of any old joke, story...heck, not sure where I heard it.

I'm the High Level Character and the guards are staring at me over the tops of their crossbows, I have to stop and look around then say, "Now...ask yourself boys, am I trapped in here with you? Or are you trapped in here with me?"

Watchmen, Chapter 6, pgs 12/13

Rorschach throws a pan of hot cooking fat into the face of another inmate. "None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. You're locked up in here with me."

Oh - and the high level characters do whatever they feel like with the guards. Good party, they go with them. Evil party, tasty after dinner snacks.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

In the RAW, as pointed out up-thread, you will have NPCs in larger communities who are much closer in level to the titular level 15 adventurers.

Yes, that was my math up above. Using the DMG demographics, for a city of 9,000 -- as I noted, this is the LARGEST city in my Dark-Ages setting -- you have 443 warriors, of whom 8 are level 2, 4 are level 5, 2 are level 11. Are these not the city guard?

If you assume the city can call on ALL of the PC-classed characters in town in an emergency, you get 22 PC-classed characters of 8th-11th level and many more of lower level.

The 30 of each PC class strains credibility for me (2 of the highest levels, 4 of half that, 8 of half that, and 16 of half that or 1st), but since we are going by RAW demographics, then yes: the city could get together enough casters to disable them IF the PCs were surprised.

 

[irdeggman]

After the PCs escape (or kill) the dozen guards then the real militia shows up or the PCs are no shunned and no longer welcome in the town.

When confronted with say a 100 or so guards things start to change somewhat.

Large groups can accomplish a lot with grappling and the like - things that provide bonuses due to synergy via large numbers helps.

 

[I'm A Banana]

My own quibble is with sending out the level 2 posse to begin with, but if the scenario you outlined was from a campaign, that's really the least of the objectional issues.

I think the disconnect is why there's a quibble with this, when "the level 2 posse" makes up the bulk of the town guard in the world.

There's a lot of realistic scenarios where a level 2 posse could conceivably be facing a 15th level character (or party) and expect to be able to tell them what to do.

There's still realistic scenarios where the PC's would listen to them, despite knowing that they're probably only level 2 mooks.

It's not an unreasonable scenario, or an unreasonable assumption.

 

[TheEvil]

Anyone who had read Fritz Leiber will recognize this as the sort of situation Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser tend to fight their way out of succesfully. Put me down for option one. Having played a variety of game systems over the years, I am a firm believer in letting D&D be the heroic sword and sorcery game it is. If I want a game where guardsmen with crossbows are a threat, I will play Harnmaster or some such.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

IIRC, in the bible, when King Ahab decided to do something about Elijah IIRC, he sent a group of fifty or so soldiers to capture him and Elijah called down fire from heaven and it consumed them all. So, King Ahab did it again. (Maybe he figured Elijah would run out of spell slots sooner or later). And Elijah called down the fire again. So, King Ahab sent a third group of soldiers and that time, the captain showed up in front of Elijah and, having heard what happened to the last two groups of soldiers, fell on his knees and begged Elijah not to call down fire from heaven on him. Elijah didn't and instead went with him willingly.

Now, it's been a while since I read that story so I could have Elijah and Elisha mixed up and it might have been captains of 100 instead of captains of 50, but that general outline is how I see 15th level PCs (high enough level to cast firestorm or sunburst) interacting with groups of guards with crossbows (or regular bows, etc). The low level guards cannot compel the high level PCs to go with them. They can only ask the PCs to do so and hope that the PCs comply out of a respect for law, pity for the guards (who will try to enforce the law if the PCs disregard them), or fear of the authority that the guards represent (hey, he's only a second level guard, but he's a servant of the Lords of Waterdeep, they know who I am, and if I kill him out of hand, they may well sic Khelben, Piergon, and Elminster on me).

But, in the story Elijah isn't Chaotic Stupid. What about guys who are just causing trouble? Well, what about them? Some of them get dealt with by the high level guys that are out there. That fighter 11 and the fighter 10? Odds are good that at least one of them is either the local Lord, his son, his cousin, his ward, his champion, or his master at arms. The 11th and 10th level warriors? And the 5th level fighters and the two 8th level paladins? In a world where the local Lord is expected to go out and fight off the orcs and giants, he's either going to be skilled himself, have skilled men, or be dead and with someone else in charge. So, some measure of resources are available to the town--maybe even enough to deal with a single 15th level PC type causing trouble in the streets. (Let's make this doubly so because the kinds of 15th level PCs who simply cause trouble in the streets are likely to have vices and lack of discipline that make them vulnerable--if they were paragons of virtue, they probably wouldn't be causing trouble in the streets and if they were disciplined villains, they would be the BBEGs of a campaign and well, you expect them to take over several cities through their machinations and personal power--catch the PC drunk (especially if he's passed out in a gutter), in flagrante delictio, etc and it evens the odds up quite a bit).

But what if the local law isn't capable of dealing with the troublemaking PC? Well, then you have a situation, but it's hardly one that is without parallel in storytelling. Hannibal ravaged the countryside around Rome for years and the Romans were unable to stop him. Achilles slaughtered Trojans by the score and nobody could withstand him. When Achilles sulked in his tent, Hector drove the greeks back to their ships. In the Bible, Samson slaughtered Philistines by the score, burned their fields, and tore the gates off of their cities. They sent 10,000 soldiers after them and he killed them with the jawbone of an ass. That's the kind of stuff that 15th level characters do when they are out to destroy things and there's nothing worldbreaking about it. When the NPCs finally bribe the 15th level character's favorite whore to cut his hair (or steal his spell component pouch) while he sleeps and then drop in the remaining 10th level warrior and 10th level fighter on him, fully armed and inside an anti-magic shell, they're going to get him, and when they do, maybe they'll cut off his hands and feet and put out his eyes and chain him in the temple of their god while they celebrate that they have finally done away with the villain who plagued them for so long.

But I don't want to play all that out, you say. I don't want to DM a player's personal power trip killing guards and doing whatever he wants until I finally outsmart him. There are other players and even if there were only the one player, it's hardly my idea of fun. Well, then, handle it out of game. That's what I do. I let my players know that I'm interested in DMing for heroes who fall within a certain moral framework and that if their characters depart from that, they will become NPCs and the players will be invited to create a different character or leave. If you don't want to game with out of control PCs, don't do it. If you don't want PCs to have the ability to get out of control, then don't run high level PCs.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

By that logic, what stops game worlds from being anarchic messes where high-level characters blow into town, slaughter all the guards and wander off with impugnity?

Surely there's some check on the power of high-level NPCs other than adventurers. Outside of the Forgotten Realms, there aren't enough of them to prevent civilization being brought to its knees.

As I alluded to in the other post, there are the local NPCs who will sometimes be of decent level and, even if they aren't can sometimes catch the high level characters in vulnerable positions (when they've passed out in a ditch after drinking too much, for instance). There is also the political structure of the world to deal with. The sheriff of Nottingham may not be able to deal with Robin Hood. He'll call in the Guy of Gisbourne to help him. When Guy fails, the sheriff will appeal to King John. Etc. In the end, King John will either send people who can take out Robin Hood and he'll win or King Richard will return and Robin Hood will leave his life of crime behind or Robin Hood will win and he'll have to deal with what happens to England in that situation. If a character makes himself enough of a nuisance, he won't just have the local law gunning for him, he'll have everyone in the entire kingdom (or maybe the continent) who wants to make a name for himself/gain a reward/etc.

When you're talking 15th level, however, you are talking the kind of point where characters can turn parts of a campaign world into an anarchic mess for a while. That's not necessarily a bad thing. After all, if 15th level characters couldn't do that, why would the PCs need to deal with the BBEG? The local power structure would be able to deal with him handily. The real question is whether or not you want to DM a game where the players are running the BBEG who threatens civilization and the rag tag band of heroes who resist them are your NPCs.