A Dozen Crossbows Aimed at You ..

[paradox42]

P.S. What is the 'SHARK!' method? What's HL?

SHARK! is a poster who's been around since the beginning of ENWorld AFAIK, who's known for running stunningly large-scale, Epic-with-a-capital-E games. He doesn't post often anymore, but within the last few months I know he's posted his philosophy of world-building at least twice. Before I get into that, I'll note that in context, HL should mean "High Level" since SHARK! was mentioned. I'll also apologize in advance if I get any of this wrong; I have great respect for SHARK! and his opinions, but I haven't got them saved to my HD or anything, so I'm going on memory here.

Briefly, SHARK!'s philosophy of world-building is that the D&D core rules have bad assumptions regarding what a typical adult human is capable of. SHARK! either is currently or once was a U.S. Marine, and during his stations he met a lot of people with very diverse backgrounds and skillsets. Examining them with an eye towards adapting friends as NPCs in game (I presume), SHARK! estimated that the skills he was seeing "average" Marines display would require several character levels in D&D terms to properly explain. Examining military history with a similar eye towards gaming, SHARK! estimated that the maneuvers employed in an average Roman Legionnaire's fighting day would require a character of (I think) no less than 8th level by D&D rules to pull off.

Therefore, SHARK! reasoned, the core-rules assumption that low-level people are the majority of the world's population, is bunk. By the time a warrior can be properly called a warrior, he has to be at least mid-level, if not high. And thus, SHARK!'s game world scales very differently in the level curve- high level people are not only not terribly uncommon, but they make up the bulk of the 'skilled professionals' of the setting. The actual rulers, of course, are Epic, often (for a large city-state or nation) in the 40s or 50s if I interpret some other posts he's made correctly.

Basically, it comes down to a question of scale, I suppose. The SHARK! method is about re-scaling the world so as to take Epic beings into account from the get-go, rather than assuming that it's something so unusual in the history of the world as to be unique (or close to it) which is what the core rules seem to imply. SHARK! gave an example of a conquering army attacking a city that's made up, not of mere orcs riding worgs led by some Barbarian chieftain, but instead of fire giant knights decked out in golden armor and cavalry riding dragons. Something, in other words, which could actually threaten a city of mid-level or high-level people.

 

[Drowbane]

It's arguable both ways.

The guards could be real good (several levels in fighter/scout/order of the bow/etc.) and cost the local baron or king oodles of gold to employ, and in that case, the PCs could be in real danger.

One could also imagine the end scene from Unforgiven, where Clint has half-a-dozen pistols aimed right at him. Once he strikes, none of the stuttering gunslingers hit him, and he, with obviously more levels or experience than them, guns them all down without suffering a scratch.

My players would certainly expect to be able to take half-a-dozen crossbow bolts for 1d8 or 1d10 damage and rush the guards, which is, in my opinion, not right. Stubborn players will expect the DM to cling to the rules, no matter how illogical they may seem in certain situations, because players (my players at least) depend upon the exploitation of hazy rules, and they love shaking their heads when I fudge things in pursuit of logic.

If that scenario unfolded at my table, I would clearly warn my players that "You're caught, and if you make a move, you will be sorely wounded, if not killed outright." Just to make things "realistic," I would have every guard automatically hit a PC (or more than one PC depending on the number of guards), and every crossbow would do the maximum damage.

Thankfully, most DMs I've known aren't so fond of throwing around the DM Fiat.

With high level characters, I usually just think "What would Pai Mei do?" Pai Mei was the absolute rat-bastard genius martial arts master from Kill Bill II. Would he care if a bunch of nobodies started firing crossbows at him? He'd probably catch them all and them fire them back at the shooters with his bare hands. That's the sort of power level you're usually dealing with after about level 15 or so. You've got the fighter with a high enough AC that he can only be hit on a 20, if you manage to beat his cloak of displacement. The wizard has so much magical defense up he's practically invulnerable. And he can kill a plaza full of people by sneezing. The rogue is already behind them lining up a surprise sneak attack.

Still Pai Mei only has 3-18 Constitution just like any other human. Everyone has a weakness that's exploitable by those who lack awesome powers of destruction.

While Pai Mei was featured in KB2... he isn't *from* KB2. He is a villain from an old kung fu series...

And I agree. "What would Pai Mei do?" needs to be a bumpersticker.

Also, shouldn't Pai Mei have been immune to poison by such a high level in Monk? I'm guessing he took a PrC (or 2) as soon as he could and thus missed out on the poison immunity.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

At what level to the players become true heroes?

So, we're defining "true hero" as "able to beat up cops with impugnity?"

 

[Drowbane]

So, we're defining "true hero" as "able to beat up cops with impugnity?"

It worked for Batman.

 

[Hammerhead]

I think we're defining "true hero" as someone who gets called in when the local cops can't handle the situation. And it's not as if police officers expect much combat in their job (if at all).

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think we're defining "true hero" as someone who gets called in when the local cops can't handle the situation.

This thread is full of people insisting just the opposite, actually: The only people who will ever be called in are the lowliest possible forces, so that player characters, apparently, can show off by walking through a hail of crossbow bolts without getting a scratch.

And it's not as if police officers expect much combat in their job (if at all).

That really IS a fantasy world, then.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I think we're defining "true hero" as someone who gets called in when the local cops can't handle the situation. And it's not as if police officers expect much combat in their job (if at all).

Pretty much. When does the PC become more than Joe Schmoe with a sword is all I'm saying. Your average city guard can can handle a goblin or an orc in fair fight most of the time but the heavier things of say 4+ HD require large numbers of them or tougher, more elite folks...like the PCs. Sure there are higher level people in the employ of a city, but not in normal guard duty most likely. They probably take a bit more time to get together in force and even then after a time the PC's will most likely begin to move past them as well. The idea that a regular city guard is 8-10th level and his watch commander is 12-15th makes me wonder why heroes like the PC's would ever be needed. If there is a 10 HD demon lose in the sewers just send in a unit of the regular watch in that case. Wouldn't all Orcs then require 6 levels of warrior or Fighter then? To me it would be like starting at -5 level and working your way to the point where you are on par with the chump standing at the gate, after a few months of gameplay.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

When does the PC become more than Joe Schmoe with a sword is all I'm saying.

And, again, you measure this by the ability to be able to beat up cops?

A PC is more than Joe Schmoe when they can do things like kill an undead creature that could wipe out a whole family with no trouble (like a ghoul), survive the attack of a creature that could instantly kill a lesser individual (like a medusa) or work together to defeat threats to an entire kingdom (like a dragon or demon).

All of those are a lot more impressive than beating up cops and, by any definition, a lot more heroic.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

And, again, you measure this by the ability to be able to beat up cops?

A PC is more than Joe Schmoe when they can do things like kill an undead creature that could wipe out a whole family with no trouble (like a ghoul), survive the attack of a creature that could instantly kill a lesser individual (like a medusa) or work together to defeat threats to an entire kingdom (like a dragon or demon).

All of those are a lot more impressive than beating up cops and, by any definition, a lot more heroic.

Yes, I have my own CR rating based on how many cops they can beat up.

I could probably state how I was just using that a basic comparison of how elite the PC's are for discussion purposes but I get the feeling that it wouldn't matter.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I could probably state how I was just using that a basic comparison of how elite the PC's are for discussion purposes but I get the feeling that it wouldn't matter.

You can't toss off a quickie bon mot and then act offended when the deep secret subtleties aren't picked up on.