A few questions about Chain Spell

[Taren Seeker]

Save or die style spells, lets see I chain it it's 3 levels higher and there is a penalty of -4 to the saves on all non primary targets. Lets go with a clerics hold person. It's 5th level though it has the save DC of a 2nd level spell for the primary target and the save DC of a -2 level spell for the rest. Just save your self a high level spell and cast hold on the primary target because unless they roll really pathetic the rest aren't failing there saves.

Just wanted to point out that even with a -4 Chain Hold Person can be very effective for a cleric.

Our party cleric used it. He had around a 28 wisdom (26 +prodigy), gr focus enchantment and spell power +1 from Heirophant.

DC: 26 primary, 22 secondary. More than enough to wipe out a bunch of mid-high level fighters.

Greater command (closest analogue) might have a better DC, but there's a language barrier and targets get a save every round.

SO yes, the -4 can hurt, but with a good enough base, or with the right target (ie weak Will saves) Chain can be quite dangerous.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Just wanted to point out that even with a -4 Chain Hold Person can be very effective for a cleric.

Our party cleric used it. He had around a 28 wisdom (26 +prodigy), gr focus enchantment and spell power +1 from Heirophant.

DC: 26 primary, 22 secondary. More than enough to wipe out a bunch of mid-high level fighters.

Greater command (closest analogue) might have a better DC, but there's a language barrier and targets get a save every round.

SO yes, the -4 can hurt, but with a good enough base, or with the right target (ie weak Will saves) Chain can be quite dangerous.

So with a maxed out stat and 3 additional feats chain spell on save or dies can actually function. Woo-hooo. And as a cleirc he/she spent what al his/her feats to do this. Rock-on.

It should be DC 25/21 by the way.

Anyways ets assume see the same cleric without 3 feats to boost the DC, it ends up DC 20/16 not bad if it wasn't a 5th elvel spell. And cost you a feat.

 

[Al]

You can't cop out that easily. What if I play a wiz with Int 20 and Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy? What if I Heighten Ray of Enfeeblement to 6th level? Assuming the spell is chainable, I'd get a save DC of 25 for the primary target, and 21 for secondary targets.

Your point being...?

If your point is that this combination is too powerful, you're grievously mistaken. For 9th level, Wail of the Banshee is a *far* more effective spell and reducing people's effectiveness (on account of killing them). And the DCs will be 28 for all targets.

If your point is not on game balance, then what other objections are you trying to raise? Using non-specific phrases such as 'legality' are not going to help unless you make your meaning explicit. If you have a non-balance issue with this combination, I am happy to try to address it.

I think the biggest problem with chain spell is it's intended function to chain attack spells it sucks horribly at with an exception of one or two spells

I beg to differ. The fact is that it is incredibly useful for chaining single target, nasty effect type spell. It is true that the Chained Hold Person is of limited value due to Greater Command (although you couldn't paralyse people with GC, only tell them to sleep).
However, there are no mass effect Fort save-or-die type spells that I can immediately think of, short of Wail of the Banshee and Weird. With Chain spell, they can manifest as early as 7th (Chained Polymorph Other: not strictly save-or-die, but close enough). The DCs are low, but not totally risible. Taking the iconic 7th level wizard casting Chained Charm Person (and giving him Spell Focus: Enchantment instead of Toughness: not unreasonable) will give him a primary DC of 16 and secondary DCs of 12. The iconic fighter has a +4 Will save, so his secondary targets will have a 35% chance of failing that save: a not insubstantial percentage.

 

[Taren Seeker]

So with a maxed out stat and 3 additional feats chain spell on save or dies can actually function. Woo-hooo. And as a cleirc he/she spent what al his/her feats to do this. Rock-on.

It should be DC 25/21 by the way.

Anyways ets assume see the same cleric without 3 feats to boost the DC, it ends up DC 20/16 not bad if it wasn't a 5th elvel spell. And cost you a feat.

+9 from the stat, +4 greater focus, +1 spell power, +2 2nd lvl spell, +10 base= 26. I don't think I missed anything.

It's not unusual for clerics to max out their primary stat. Also, all of those feats are not just of use in this case, as all 3 have other applications. Even if you drop the focus & greater focus you still have DC 22/18. Again, vs weak Will save creatures (BDF's for instance) very useful. Even for a 5th level slot. Compare it to Greater Command, a very strong spell.

My point is that chaining can still be effective for something like Hold person. Does it take some investment? Sure, but that investment still pays off in other areas. I see most spellcasters take prodigy for instance, and if you're going to go the focus route, a school with save or die spells is a strong choice.

So, with the ability to make chained save or die spells effective and the ability to chain buffs like GMW Chain is a strong feat. Chain focused Dispel is also a great option. The half dice issue does need to be looked at more closely however.

 

[AuraSeer]

Your point being...?

You said it's moot to discuss whether Ray of Enfeeblement is chainable, because the save DC is low. I responded by pointing out that talking about a spell's legality is different than talking about its power. In passing, I showed that you were incorrect in assuming that the spell necessarily has a low DC.

 

[KarinsDad]

I disagree with KD's interpretation.

I don't believe that Chain Spell can be used with Magic Missile or Flame arrow, because they don't specify a single target. They allow one or more targets, which is different from specifying a single target.

I feel that using the more liberal interpretation makes the feat too powerful.

To each their own.

I try to look at overall game balance, especially when discussing feats (which are often all over the place).

Charm is 1st level. Mass Charm is 8th level.

Haste is 3rd level. Mass Haste is 6th level.

Heal is 6th level. Mass Heal is 8th level.

Invisibility is 2nd level. Mass Invisibility is 7th level.

Suggestion is 3rd level. Mass Suggestion is 6th level.

Chain is less powerful than Mass, at least if you use the 1/2 effect (as opposed to 1/2 damage) for arced targets interpretation. And it is always 3 levels higher. Mass is anywhere from 2 to 7 levels higher depending on spell, but it averages 4 levels higher.

So Chain at 3 levels higher vs. Mass at 4 average levels higher seems balanced to me. But, it seems balanced if you can use it with any ranged spell you can target an opponent with, not if it is only ranged spells that target an opponent and are written up in a certain manner. That seems kind of silly. Either you are dropping a spell down on someone, or you are not. IMO.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I beg to differ. The fact is that it is incredibly useful for chaining single target, nasty effect type spell. It is true that the Chained Hold Person is of limited value due to Greater Command (although you couldn't paralyse people with GC, only tell them to sleep).
However, there are no mass effect Fort save-or-die type spells that I can immediately think of, short of Wail of the Banshee and Weird. With Chain spell, they can manifest as early as 7th (Chained Polymorph Other: not strictly save-or-die, but close enough). The DCs are low, but not totally risible. Taking the iconic 7th level wizard casting Chained Charm Person (and giving him Spell Focus: Enchantment instead of Toughness: not unreasonable) will give him a primary DC of 16 and secondary DCs of 12. The iconic fighter has a +4 Will save, so his secondary targets will have a 35% chance of failing that save: a not insubstantial percentage.

Sorry but I do think 35% chance is an insubstantial %. The iconic fighter is the person who has eprhaps the worst chance of succeeding against it and he still gets 65% chance of success, so unless you fight collecitons of people whoose saves suck v your chain spell attacks, the 35% chance starts taking a nose dive. If that fighter was a barb raging, or had a decent wis, or iron will or some low level buff protections or a cloak of resistence etc, that % drops, if he was a target with good will saves that % plummets.

35% chance vs the weakest target is a waste of a high level spell, and a poor excuse for a feat. Now this is just how my games have played out, and my impressions. Obviously 35% works out for you in your games. For me this feat has two purposes, one multi-buffs, two adding versatility to a sorcerers spell list. Neither of those purposes are the purposes that the feat sems to intend to capture with its description.

 

[KarinsDad]

It is true that the Chained Hold Person is of limited value due to Greater Command (although you couldn't paralyse people with GC, only tell them to sleep).

Actually, Greater Command has limited utility due to the "Save every round" limitation in it.

It is at best, capable of getting a few opponents to flee for 2 rounds (i.e. run away for a round, save, run back) or even 4 rounds sometimes. It is rare that someone will miss 3 saves in a row.

 

[psyronin]

I'm in the can't-chain-rays camp. I mean, how does a ray get Chained? All of a sudden a bunch of rays come out of your primary target and hit his buddies? Do you roll for every secondary ray? If so, do you get your Point Blank feat bonus to each of those rays?
What if you miss your primary target? Does it still Chain? By the wording it does. It says the spell affects the primary target normally and then it arcs. The Chained Cause Fear in the example doesn't say the other goblins only have to roll if the primary one fails his save. So whether or not the primary target actually comes under the effects of the spell has no bearing on the spell TRYING to affect others. So when I miss with a Chained ray, I can still try to affect the secondary targets? If so, at what point does it Chain for the purposes of Point Blank?
There are just too many questions that one does not run into when Chaining spells that specify only a single target.

 

[Xarlen]

So a bunch of Cause Fears just pop out of the goblin instead? Or bolts of lightning? Or Dispels?