D&D 4E A few questions about modifying 4e rules.

[Tequila Sunrise]

I think it's great that you're trying the game without house rules first. As a professor of mine used to say "You have to know the rules to break them." That said, there are a few things that I've changed about 4e despite how much I like it overall. Such as:

Also, my thing with the "keeping spells in the spellbook" as you raise levels, I was just thinking that it would be weird to learn a spell say for example Spider Climb (which should have a sustain keyword shouldn't it?) and then you raise a bunch of levels and re-train that spell into something else, you can't get that spell again unless you re-train again to get it back? It just seems odd to me. Unless I am not understanding it right. Which very well could be, lol!!!

This is indeed very weird. Sometimes you can explain a spell swap, like fireball to meteor swarm, by imagining that the wizard simply expanded and improved on fireball thereby turning it into meteor swarm. But there's no good in-game explanation for swapping say, sleep for web. It's as if the spell book has a mind of its own and suddenly decides that remembering Sleep for the wizard is too much hassle after the wizard adds Web, and so somehow erases Sleep from its own pages.

So what I do is give my PCs, regardless of class, two options:
1. Retrain powers as they level as per the RAW.
2. Give up the option to retrain powers, but retain all their powers as they level. Additionally, I will drop them spell books (and other 'power books') from which they can add new powers to their repertoire.

TS

 

[FireLance]

1. Bring back the randomness of HP. Instead of getting 6 hp per level, roll 2d3. Or instead of 5 hp, roll 1d4+1. Things of that nature.

I personally like fixed hp (and point buy), because it makes it easier for me to re-create my character from scratch if I happen to lose the sheet. If you do want to roll randomly, I would suggest 2d4-1 for classes that get 4 hp/level, 2d4 for classes that get 5 hp/level, 2d4+1 for classes that get 6 hp/level and so on.

2. Eliminating the need for a cleric to require healing surges being used for his healing spells. This just seems weird. If I have no healing surges, then wouldn't that be the point of the cleric healing me instead of me healing myself?

This change will allow the PCs to adventure longer before they need to take an extended rest. If you are not too concerned about the PCs taking on encounter after encounter, this change will not cause you any problems.

3. Only letting the cleric/wiz/warlock learn rituals. More than likely, knowing my group, they would role-play this anyway and never have a non-caster class learn rituals anyway, but just an idea.

This should have minimal impact on your game, especially if the non-spellcasters are not going to want to learn rituals anyway.

4. Letting casters keep all of the spells they learned at previous levels and use them if they want. For example, if I learned a spell at lvl 4 and then at lvl 19 I wanted to cast that one I learned at 4 again, it should be ok right? Unless I am not understanding the rules in a way that the lower level spells don't scale for damage as levels rise?

I assume you mean that the number of encounter and daily powers that a character can use remains the same, but he can use a lower-level power instead of a higher level one? This would make the higher-level characters a bit more flexible, but I doubt this would unbalance them.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

1)
Random Hit Points: Well, there are some drawbacks to it. I liked the Iron Heroes method best - roll 1d4+an amount depending on your class.
To get approximately the same values as in 4E, use
4 hp per level = 1d4+2
5 hp per level = 1d4+3
6 hp per level = 1d4+4
7 hp per level = 1d4+5 (I think there is no class with that yet, but it come with PHB 2)

2) Cleric Healing.
I wouldn't change that. The healing surges are basically one of your critical "per day" resources and if the Cleric can ignore them, he becomes more powerful then other Leader classes. Note that the Cleric has some powers (among them utlity powers) that let him do what you want (Cure Light Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, mass Cure Wounds are the most obvious ones, but there are more.)

3) Rituals
Rituals are basically what you might see "normal" people do in fantasy books or shows. Giles casting a ritual to help Buffy. In pre 4E terms, you could see taking the Ritual Caster feat as a type of multiclassing into a spellcaster. (And if you still allow that but want to limit Ritual Casting further, multiclassing should allow access to rituals.)

4) I think it would not be too broken to let them keep the powers, but do not change the number of Encounter or Daily powers. If they get the option to retrain a 3rd level encounter power for a 13th level, the would learn the new power and each encounter had a choice between casting the 13th level encounter power or the 3rd level power, but not both.

 

[Vermonter]

Thinking about Hit Points

The con bonus/level to HP being gone is not strange in 4e. It works like this.

Constitution (not just bonus) to HP at 1st level. This is like double con bonus +10.

Con bonus to Healing Surges. This is an extra HP bonus wqual to your total HP/4 per healing surge. This scales with level. Since you can do this all by yourself each encounter, plus as much as you want between encounters, this adds up to be a lot. It also makes a big difference between low con and high con characters, which is what con bonus per level does. It provides a mechanic to create a difference in HP between low and high con characters that scales with level.

The numbers aren't the same, and the math to get the numbers aren't the same, but the effect is. Higher con and higher level characters are harder to take down.

The changes made to hit points and introduction of healing surges I think was one of the biggest a least well explain innovations of the new system. Quite simply you can't think of hit points in the same way as you did in prior versions of D&D. Hit points are now more like an exhaustion meter. They are regularly worn down in combat, and if they reach zero you are unconscious and dying.

Except: it is healing surges that really measure, in a grand scheme of things how close a hero is to death. A hero with on 1/4 of his hit points left but 8 more healing surges has only used up 25% of his overall endurance for the day. Yes, he needs to end the combat and get a breather, but then he'll be back to full hit points and 5 healing surges.

This means a couple things. First it means that DMs need to rethink how to describe combat. That blow in the first combat of the day that renders a character down to 2 hit points left might be major, but chances are in five minutes the player will have shaken it off, even absent magical healing. So go easy on the descriptions of near dismemberment.

The second thing it means is that +1 healing surge is a bigger deal than +1 hit point per level. In fact, it is at least +1 hit point per level, because the healing surge value is based on 1/4 of the hit points, and all classes get at least 4 hit points per level when they advance. In face, a high constitution actually has a greater impact in 4e on durability than in prior versions for those classes with extra hit points.

For an example, consider a Dwarven Fighter.
At level 1 with 12 Con he has 27 hp and 10 surges worth 6 hp. Daily hit points = 87.
At level 1 with 18 Con he has 33 hp and 13 surges worth 8 hp. Daily hit points = 137.
in 3rd edition that would be 11 to 14 or a 27% increase in hit points
in 4th edition that is a 57% increase in hit points

Lets advance him to level 8 and bump con both times:
At level 8 with 14 Con he has 71 hp and 11 surges worth 17 hp. Daily hit points = 258
At level 8 with 20 Con he has 77 hp and 14 surges worth 19 hp. Daily hit points = 343
in 3rd edition that would be (base 6 hp/level) 61 to 85 or a 39% increase in hit points
in 4th edition it is still a 33% increase in hit points

So, as you can see, even though you have "only 6 hit points more" throughout your career with an 18 instead of 12 starting Con, the real survivability impact can be much more.

Also, this means that the toughness feat is still quite useful at high levels. Say our 14 Con level 8 fighter takes it:
That means he now has 76 hp and 11 surges worth 19 hp. Daily hit points = 285
Those 5 hit points were a 10% increase in his overall daily survivability.

Hope that helps you see why your house rules could really disrupt balance. Even rolling for hit points I think could be pretty risky. But then again, I like point buys and to have all my luck in the form of attack and damage rolls.

 

[El Mahdi]

...

1. Bring back the randomness of HP. Instead of getting 6 hp per level, roll 2d3. Or instead of 5 hp, roll 1d4+1. Things of that nature.

2. Eliminating the need for a cleric to require healing surges being used for his healing spells. This just seems weird. If I have no healing surges, then wouldn't that be the point of the cleric healing me instead of me healing myself?

3. Only letting the cleric/wiz/warlock learn rituals. More than likely, knowing my group, they would role-play this anyway and never have a non-caster class learn rituals anyway, but just an idea.

4. Letting casters keep all of the spells they learned at previous levels and use them if they want. For example, if I learned a spell at lvl 4 and then at lvl 19 I wanted to cast that one I learned at 4 again, it should be ok right? Unless I am not understanding the rules in a way that the lower level spells don't scale for damage as levels rise?...

I've got some ideas that might be of help with these, but they are all with the caveat that I don't play 4E. However, I do possess and have read the core books, and I have ported quite a few of the parts of 4E I do like to my 3E games. Maybe these can help, or maybe not?

1. I can understand your attraction to random HP, but this part of 4E is one I now use wholesale in my 3E games, except that I still let players add there Con bonus at all levels (if someone wants to build the extreme-durability tank, I support it by letting them have HP's over and above the norm by putting a higher score into Con). I feel the advantage of everyone getting a player with the ability scores they want, where they want them, works out better than players ending up with characters that are hosed by bad HP rolls. I definitely don't like the situation where a weaker physical class character ends up with higher HP than the tank warrior, simply because of bad dice rolls.

2. I can't help you too much with this one. I don't completely get the healing surge thing either (despite all of the threads trying to help those just like me). But, I think I'd go with the advice that if you allow Clerics to do more healing, then you probably need to reduce the amount of healing surges characters have. Other than that, others on this thread are more knowledgable on this one.

3. This is another one I've ported to 3E. I like the idea of other classes being able to use rituals, as long as they have the necessary feat (i.e. Training) to be able to learn them. To me, this is like having Sam and Dean in Supernatural, able to use Rituals. As long as they have the basic understanding of how rituals work (a Feat), and the necessary study of a specific ritual to know how to use it ("proficiency" with the Ritual), I really don't see why a character of any class can't do this.

4. This is one I'm with you on 100%, but I also understand why 4E does it the way it does. I definitely don't like the situation where the Wizard's player is searching through his 20 or 30 (or more) powers, on his turn, while everyone else is bored out of their minds waiting for him to do something. But, maybe you can have your cake and eat it too. Try this:

• Use powers as written, except with a small addition. Keep all of the old powers (as cards or listed on the character's sheet) in kind of a memory pool, as opposed to currently used powers. It's not that the character has completely forgotten how to use them, they just use them so infrequently, or use others more frequently (their current powers) that it takes them a little bit to remember how to use them. View them like this: I've come back to work from a long vacation before, and found that I've completely forgotten my password for my work computer during the previous month or couple of weeks. I think powers that we don't use every day are very much like this. However, there shouldn't be any reason why the character absolutely cannot use those older powers. Just as if I think long enough and hard enough, I'll probably remember my password, if a character thinks long enough and hard enough, they should also be able to remember how to use an older power.
• So, during combat, if a player wants to use an older power, then in order to keep game play going and keep the realism of not just forgetting older powers they have learned, they may spend a round (full round action) trying to remember. During that round they can do nothing but defend themselves (no active attacks, but can make saves, etc.). Then, at the beginning of their next turn, they make a check. This would be done like this: 1. Give everyone a general knowledge skill based on there power source, such as Knowledge: Martial or Knowledge: Divine, with there ranks in this skill determined normally (5 + 1/2 level + Int. mod). 2. Make a skill check with the aforementioned skill, against a DC of 10 + (*the difference between the players current level and the level of the power they are attempting to remember) + any damage they accumulated during the previous round.
• If they make the check, they use the power with no penalty. If they don't make the check, they just couldn't remember how to do it during the heat of battle, and press on with normal attacks or using a current power.

Some notes on this:

*I'd add "the difference between the players current level and the level of the power they are attempting to remember" to the DC, simply because it would make sense that the older the power is, the harder it would probably be to remember it. But, if you want it to be simpler, you could probably drop this part.

Having to take a full round action, gives the player a chance to look for the power they want without making the rest of the table wait.

I'd let a player avoid the check altogether, for the expenditure of an action point, but they would still have to spend a full round action (I still wouldn't want to keep the other players waiting while they search through 20 or 30 powers). This way, if they remember an older power that would be a perfect tool to take out the BBEG, and they can't afford the chance of not remembering, they can use an action point to avoid making the check.

In a non-combat situation, the player simply makes the check the same as in combat (minus the damage part). But, if they don't succeed, they must spend a number of minutes equal to the level of the power, re-studying it (re-reading the spell in their spellbook, re-walking through a maneuver, etc.) before they can re-attempt with any chance of success (re-roll the check).



I hope I've helped, and have fun with your 4E campaign.