D&D 5E A few thoughts on 5E.

[sithramir]

I stopped playing D&D right around start of 4th edition and haven't really gotten back into it until recently due to reasons not worth mentioning.

Anyways a few comments I had looking at the starter pack:

1) Tiefling and Damage Resistance in general: It basically just states that you take half damage from that form of damage type? Is there really no grading for levels of resistance? Like it used to be 5, 10, 15, etc? Can you now only be resistant or immune? While simple I personally don't like it? Anyone agree? I liked that with DR 5 Fire a torch wouldn't hurt you but now you can still take damage? Guess I really don't like it

2) Spells at higher levels for Wizard and other classes: What's up with only 1 of each level for higher levels spells even at level 20 you only get 1 of 7,8,9 spells? This seems not so fun? Am I missing something? As the "wizard" of any group this seems just horrible

3) Saves are now stat based so what does that mean for monster? Like demons always had the "low fortitude" so you used a death spell on them. But their con wasn't low they just had really poor fortitude. How would this equate now? Seems like higher class monsters will end up with good saves unless they really tweak down stats?

Just would like to hear other peoples thoughts on it.

 

[billd91]

1) Tiefling and Damage Resistance in general: It basically just states that you take half damage from that form of damage type? Is there really no grading for levels of resistance? Like it used to be 5, 10, 15, etc? Can you now only be resistant or immune? While simple I personally don't like it? Anyone agree? I liked that with DR 5 Fire a torch wouldn't hurt you but now you can still take damage? Guess I really don't like it

Game design issue. Is it better to have high defenses and run the risk of player actions having no effect? Or is it better for them to have some effect, just decreased? In some cases, it's the latter. Think of a game with high defenses that are hard to penetrate - that target will frustrate players no end. Lots of actions end up feeling "wasted" because they had no effect. Contrast with one in which the target is always being whittled down at least a little - no action is completely wasted. Every successful attack contributes.
I think that rationale fits a game like Champions where physical and energy defenses of some characters could be set too high and are much broader than the 5e attack types, but I think that's still part of the rationale.

2) Spells at higher levels for Wizard and other classes: What's up with only 1 of each level for higher levels spells even at level 20 you only get 1 of 7,8,9 spells? This seems not so fun? Am I missing something? As the "wizard" of any group this seems just horrible

In return, you have a lot more flexibility in prepping your spells. Those scarce slots aren't devoted to particular spells - ANY spell could be cast with them and you could have more than one eligible spell prepped for it. Lots more flexibility + a little less stamina on those really powerful spells.

 

[Evenglare]

I stopped playing D&D right around start of 4th edition and haven't really gotten back into it until recently due to reasons not worth mentioning.

Anyways a few comments I had looking at the starter pack:

1) Tiefling and Damage Resistance in general: It basically just states that you take half damage from that form of damage type? Is there really no grading for levels of resistance? Like it used to be 5, 10, 15, etc? Can you now only be resistant or immune? While simple I personally don't like it? Anyone agree? I liked that with DR 5 Fire a torch wouldn't hurt you but now you can still take damage? Guess I really don't like it

2) Spells at higher levels for Wizard and other classes: What's up with only 1 of each level for higher levels spells even at level 20 you only get 1 of 7,8,9 spells? This seems not so fun? Am I missing something? As the "wizard" of any group this seems just horrible

3) Saves are now stat based so what does that mean for monster? Like demons always had the "low fortitude" so you used a death spell on them. But their con wasn't low they just had really poor fortitude. How would this equate now? Seems like higher class monsters will end up with good saves unless they really tweak down stats?

Just would like to hear other peoples thoughts on it.

1. Keep rules bloat out of it. If you don't like the simplicity of how it's done then you are completely free to house rule it, but when you have gradient things like this you are lead to ways of dealing with these and ways of gaining this, which leads to choice trapping of characters. If your campaign doesn't deal with many of these things then that puts extra work on the DM to start selectively banning or encouraging players to use these things. In a game as complex as an RPG that's already a huge burden, but every little thing like that hurts the DM and players with selectivity of choices and rules bloat.

2. See: Linear fighter Quadratic wizard / caster edition argument. Flatly said it's balancing issues, also you seem to glance over the fact that there are ways to gain back spell slots.... soo there's that. But yes it's a fundamental rule of the game that you can't cast world and reality altering spells nearly as much as you used to. It's just that simple.

3. Fortitude was conbased so while fortitude might have been low and the con was high.... what does that even mean? I think these saves homogenize what these things mean. Stats are bounded at this point, so high levels are going to cap much lower than you seem to understand. Stats mean something, in your case you don't think this should be true, or you think that fortitude should be some sort of seperate stat for constitution but really it shouldn't. Again, they pared down the awful bloat of these things. A similar argument can be made for every other save. You have a high reflex save but a low dexterity attribute? It boggles the mind how this would be, and I'm sure you can make some strange convoluted argument but do I really have to make some sort of reason this happens for every creature and every race that does this? We KNOW dex reflects reflex saves so why would they be different? If they are why have the stat affect the save if they are indeed different? It doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[Agamon]

1) Tiefling and Damage Resistance in general: It basically just states that you take half damage from that form of damage type? Is there really no grading for levels of resistance? Like it used to be 5, 10, 15, etc? Can you now only be resistant or immune? While simple I personally don't like it? Anyone agree? I liked that with DR 5 Fire a torch wouldn't hurt you but now you can still take damage? Guess I really don't like it

It's more simple this way. But also, damage scales now more than AC, thanks to the new math. So Resistance 5 is huge at level 1 but not much of anything at higher levels.

2) Spells at higher levels for Wizard and other classes: What's up with only 1 of each level for higher levels spells even at level 20 you only get 1 of 7,8,9 spells? This seems not so fun? Am I missing something? As the "wizard" of any group this seems just horrible

This would be to stop wizards from becoming walking heavy artillery that could take care of an encounter all by himself at high level. It's part of the solution to the LFQW problem.

3) Saves are now stat based so what does that mean for monster? Like demons always had the "low fortitude" so you used a death spell on them. But their con wasn't low they just had really poor fortitude. How would this equate now? Seems like higher class monsters will end up with good saves unless they really tweak down stats?

Stats aren't going to be the same as 3e, where high level creatures have all stats in the 30s. Just as PCs are kept at a realistic level, so will the monsters. The exceptions will just be higher CR/XP than they normally would be.

 

[Gadget]

your comments seem to be really 3e focused, I guess you're coming from a 3e perspective.

1) Damage resistance - Others will probably explain better than I, but yes they went with a 'keep it simple' philosophy this time around that is much easier to use in actual play. With more of a focus on 'Rulings not Rules' there might be some room for the DM to say: 'Yes, you can hold your hand over the candle for a long time and clean up on that bet at the party' in most non combat situations.

2) Wizards and magic have been toned down in some ways in this edition to help solve the Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard (LFQW) issue. There has been much discussion discussion on this all through development, and all through 4e really (which did a fairly nice job of solving this issue, though the implementation was, needless to say, not to everyone's liking). Other ways to tone down spell casting include: no more automatic scaling of spells with caster level, if you want increased effects you must use a higher level spell slot; Almost all buff type and non instantaneous SoD, SoS (Save or Die, Save or Suck) spells require concentration to maintain, which can be easily broken and limits it to one such spell in play at a time for each caster.

Wizards of also received certain benefits to help out though. At will cantrips that can be used to attack in pinch and get more potent at higher levels, Only a pseudo-Vancian spell casting method is used: You do not have to prepare spells in certain slots anymore, just choose the spells you want to prepare and use you available slots to cast them as many times as you want. Many spells can be used in a higher slot of augmented effects, thereby increasing the casters flexibility in choosing and preparing spells. It seems to be a generally well liked change so far.

3) Monsters will have stats. So the DM will know the demon's CON score. Also, some monsters and classes have proficiency in certain saves so there is a bonus there in addition to the stat. In fact, one of 5es big design innovations is referred to as 'Bounded Accuracy'. Stats and proficiency bonuses are bounded, or limited to certain ranges, so higher level beings can still be ganged up on and threatened by lower level 'fodder'. This combined with the limits on buffing described above make it so that the numbers don't get so far out of whack. Magic Items seem to max out at about a +3 rather than the higher numbers of previous editions and are no longer assumed to be in play. This is intended to keep saves, save difficulty, Attack bonii, and AC in a more limited range and keep the number inflation down.

 

[Tony Vargas]

2) Spells at higher levels for Wizard and other classes: What's up with only 1 of each level for higher levels spells even at level 20 you only get 1 of 7,8,9 spells? This seems not so fun? Am I missing something? As the "wizard" of any group this seems just horrible

The casting mechanic has changed. You can now prep spells without regards to level, just number, but expend 'slots' spontaneously (yes, like a 3e sorcerer) to cast them. So even one high-level slot represents tremendous versatility. I suspect, from the way high-level slots are gained, that 6+ level spells are just all meant to be pretty crazy, so having 1 each of 6-9 is only slightly less awesome than having four 9th or something like that.

Also, 5e is explicitly designed around a fairly short day of 4 or 5 encounters of 4 or so rounds each, for a total of 16 or 20 round in a day. So a caster with 32 spells would just be completely overstocked.

Also, in addition to our slots, you get at-will cantrips, some of which are combat-effective, and the option of casting a spell 'as a ritual,' out of combat, without expending a slot.

Also, in addition to the slots at the start of the day, wizards can re-charge a slot each time they take a short rest.

So casters in general and wizards in particular have it pretty good this ed.

3) Saves are now stat based so what does that mean for monster?

It means they have stats and they roll 'em when you force a save - so take your best guess at their dump stat and hammer it.

But their con wasn't low they just had really poor fortitude. How would this equate now? Seems like higher class monsters will end up with good saves unless they really tweak down stats?

Stats top out at 20 (+5) and save DCs top out at 19. So, no, just having a high stat doesn't give you a great save, a 20 CON monster would have to roll a 14 to hit a 19 save DC, that's failing 65% of the time. Hammer a dump stat and they'll need a natural 20.

You can, however, have 'proficiency' in a save, which is a +2 bonus that scales to +6 over 20 levels (why, yes, that /is/ like a good save in 3e, but I'm sure it's a coincidence, since they're using the same bonus for skills and attacks and save DCs, now). PC classes get proficiency in two saves: so far, consistently, one meaningful (DEX, CON or WIS - which, so far, are the only stats spells force saves against) and one rare (STR, INT, or CHA - that, so far, just don't seem to come up much).

 

[transtemporal]

1) Tiefling and Damage Resistance in general: It basically just states that you take half damage from that form of damage type? Is there really no grading for levels of resistance? Like it used to be 5, 10, 15, etc? Can you now only be resistant or immune?

You are correct. There are no gradations anymore. You either take half damage or you're immune. I like the simplified system, particularly for monsters. Looking up monster resistances was a pain.

2) Spells at higher levels for Wizard and other classes: What's up with only 1 of each level for higher levels spells even at level 20 you only get 1 of 7,8,9 spells?

As others have said, its to solve the disparity in power levels between wizards and fighters that existed in previous editions. I think it may be a little on the stingy side, but that might be a good thing. Casters completely eclipsed other characters at high levels in some earlier editions.

3) Saves are now stat based so what does that mean for monster? Like demons always had the "low fortitude" so you used a death spell on them. But their con wasn't low they just had really poor fortitude. How would this equate now? Seems like higher class monsters will end up with good saves unless they really tweak down stats?

Good question. I wonder this myself. Player classes get a proficiency bonus to 2 saves so I assume monsters might get a similar bonus depending on their type but so far I haven't seen this mentioned in statblocks.

 

[gyor]

If Tieflings only got DR 5 fire they'd suck compared to the other races.

Right now Tieflings get Fire Resistance, Darkvision, and and Infernal Legacy which is a slightly more powerful, less flexible verison of Magic Iniate Feat, only I don't really know if it counts as Arcane Magic or Divine.

Elves on the other hand get Trance, immunity to sleep, resistance to charm,

Darkvision, and subrace which grants all kinds of goodies like Elven Prof, Fleet of Foot, and so on depending on Subrace.

 

[Evenglare]

Yeah I didn't think of that either, resistance scales. If you have resist 5 or 10 or whatever when you level it would become less and less relevant which is not good.

 

[sithramir]

Hearing the explanation on fire resistance I kind of feel I do like it now. You're right that being able to continually wear down people is nice and it does allow for some scaling at upper levels so it's not useless if it's DR 5. However, I guess i don't like that minor spells like multiple acid arrows can now hurt a powerful monster that is resistant to acid. I liked that if it was multiple smaller things you could shrug it off. But i can see the balance in it.

I do love the scalable lower level spells so they don't become useless. That does remove your dependancy on quantity of appropriate damage spells. I just felt 1 spell slot is just nothing. With lower stats now there's no real "bonus spells slots" for those levels either so it just seems TOO scarce to me.

I feel higher level casters are losing too much: For instance, Teleport is now 7th level! That means you won't see much teleporting going on even at higher levels. Since you'll only have one slot of 7, 8, 9 to be able to teleport a group in and teleport them out you've given up potentially any true powerful spells to do it even at level 20! That seems somehow wrong for "magic". The 1 hour rest (which I don't like much) dosn't help that much since it only helps replenish some smaller spell slots. Useful if you need some umph for another fight sure but it seems TOO weak. Where would you get a teleport scroll now? It now requires a much higher level NPC, etc. I find it very hard to imagine a world of magic where the best real method of travel is horseback. If you think about typical NPC's, how many of them are level 13+ to be able to teleport now?

Maybe i'm missing something but I feel people should be screaming about this more no? Or does everyone just love playing fighter types and levels 1-10 all day?