D&D 5E A few thoughts on 5E.

[sithramir]

Have you tried reading the Lord of the Rings? Or the Belgariad? Because both of those stories feature some of the worlds most powerful wizards spending a lot of time of horseback. Just sayin...

Yeah. Great point about it. But D&D isn't so "low magic" in most cases or at least in my preference. It kind of feels like all the people who love "low magic campaigns" don't mind this but I like higher magic. Keep in mind I don't need to power game and i love the skills and other parts D&D includes. In fact i often make wizard/thief or wizard/fighters to make a more "rounded" character. However, it can be balanced and still have lots of magic items, etc.

But teleport is just one big frustration to me when higher levels can probably fly instead of using horses for instance but can't teleport now. Portals are useful but in what world would a portal be unguarded by something powerful? I mean if you knew about it why not "tax" it. Why wouldn't the local lord prevent people from it, etc. I feel third tier characters should have more options.

In my games portal knowledge is rare and a benefit of a character who invests in the proper skills. I guess people can get magical mounts too, etc.

The more i think of it there are so many other options like flight, mounts, etc why nerf teleport so much? And if only one spell per level at higher levels then those spells should be more powerful or last longer, etc. They seem to be the same as other editions. I guess even 2 would be better. Obviously I can house rule if i want. Just 1 seems harsh.

I get trying to tone down upper level wizards but in my campaigns the wizards feared the fighters still. Yeah you might fly around and blast them with spells but get anywhere remotely near them (and they still can get items to fly, levitate, etc) and the wizard died real quick. Oh well.

 

[Gadget]

Yeah. Great point about it. But D&D isn't so "low magic" in most cases or at least in my preference. It kind of feels like all the people who love "low magic campaigns" don't mind this but I like higher magic. Keep in mind I don't need to power game and i love the skills and other parts D&D includes. In fact i often make wizard/thief or wizard/fighters to make a more "rounded" character. However, it can be balanced and still have lots of magic items, etc.

D&D has varied a bit about 'low' vs 'high' magic over the years, with 3.5 being the high water mark IMHO. After a certain point, the game seemed to become about what high level effects and/or magic items your party had access to. It seems that magic has become more ubiquitous, with less raw power and utility. Look at how many full caster classes there are in the PH: 5 (no actually 6 now that the Bard is a full caster class). How many other PHBs have had that? Not to mention two partial magic using classes in the Paladin & Ranger, plus the supernatural kung-fu-ninja-avatar stuff the Monk has going on. Then the two wholly mundane classes each have a partial casting subclass to boot!

But teleport is just one big frustration to me when higher levels can probably fly instead of using horses for instance but can't teleport now. Portals are useful but in what world would a portal be unguarded by something powerful? I mean if you knew about it why not "tax" it. Why wouldn't the local lord prevent people from it, etc. I feel third tier characters should have more options.

Many of us grew tired of the scry & fry or scry, buff, teleport routine of 3.5. But I believe there was mention of a Teleportation Circle in the PH. It seems that you could create your own portal for your party's use if you are high enough level. Maybe as a ritual? We'll have to wait for it to come out. But these issues seem more due to your specific campaign than anything.

The more i think of it there are so many other options like flight, mounts, etc why nerf teleport so much? And if only one spell per level at higher levels then those spells should be more powerful or last longer, etc. They seem to be the same as other editions. I guess even 2 would be better. Obviously I can house rule if i want. Just 1 seems harsh.

Perhaps to make those mount (magical or otherwise) more relevant to the game? I remember playing in campaigns of my youth where all our characters where flying around on dragons, but I don't think even that changed the game as much as teleport does. As higher level magic doing the same thing as before but more limited, that is an apples to oranges comparison. Maybe compared to a typical high level 3.5 campaign, but I think these spells might carry more weight in a high level 5e campaign with bounded accuracy. Have you seen the kind of carnage Meteor Swarm inflicts now?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that yes, they have reigned in higher level casting a bit in an attempt to take the crazy out of it, but they have made many other adjustments to the game as well, and they may not be as bad as you think in context.

 

[Tony Vargas]

'Low magic' in D&D terms seems to get used to refer primarily to magic /items/. You rarely see campaigns where there are no spelllcasters (or, rather, no PC spellcasters) or their spells/day or spell lists get greatly restricted.

5e, though, with less absolute need for caster healing, and no magic items assumed in the design, promises to be more amenable to the of a 'low' or 'no' magic game with neither items nor PC spellcasters assumed.

 

[Ebony Dragon]

?

2) Spells at higher levels for Wizard and other classes: What's up with only 1 of each level for higher levels spells even at level 20 you only get 1 of 7,8,9 spells? This seems not so fun? Am I missing something? As the "wizard" of any group this seems just horrible

Just would like to hear other peoples thoughts on it.

I have concerns over this as well. Only having 1 spell per day of your higher level slots does seem quite limiting, and really not very fun. Combined with the concentration buff spells this is a massive nerf to spell casters.

It's true that in 3.5 spellcasters do get too much good stuff at the higher levels. They do eclipse the martial classes to a large degree. I worry that these 5E nerfs might be too much though, and that they might make playing a high level caster more annoying than fun.

At first I was loving reading through the cool redesigned high level spells in the Basic pdf. The new Foresight spell is awesome. It looks like it's actually worthy of being a 9th level spell now. I was looking forward to having a Wizard who could cast that spell some day. But now, realizing that a character only ever gets 1x of those per day really makes it a lot less exciting.

I suspect I will never be able to "waste" my only 9th level slot on something like Foresight. That's still just not enough bang, not enough of a encounter swinging power, for your highest level spell slot that you only get to cast 1x of each day. And if it ever does get cast it will certainly be just as buff on the BSF for the advantage on attack rolls part of it. Sigh.. It's disappointing, really.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I have concerns over this as well. Only having 1 spell per day of your higher level slots does seem quite limiting, and really not very fun.

At low level the neo-Vancian caster has only a few spells and falls back on cantrips most of the time.

At high level he has only a few high-level spells, but lots of mid-lower level ones before he has to fall back on cantrips.

If anything, it maintains the Vancian feel of managing limited resources. In older editions, where high-level casters had dozens of spells and couldn't easily blow through all of them in a typical adventuring day, you lost that dynamic of managing a few, very powerful, resources.

Combined with the concentration buff spells this is a massive nerf to spell casters.

Relative to some editions, where casters needed a massive nerf, perhaps.

In other ways or in contrast to other eds, casters have never had it so good.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I have never been a fan of teleport or plane shift, I tend to leave those up to portals.

...and scry, there's another headache.

I love teleportation and plane shifting with random results. I have this great sense of delight in watching players plane shift to an Outer Plane for the first time and showing up a random number of miles in a random direction from their intended goal, and then have to find their way to their destination through potentially hundreds of miles of alien landscape. I have the same sense of delight being a player having that experience.

Of course, when you can just plane shift there and teleport straight to your destination, it kind of loses the experience.

 

[Andor]

Yeah. Great point about it. But D&D isn't so "low magic" in most cases or at least in my preference. It kind of feels like all the people who love "low magic campaigns" don't mind this but I like higher magic. Keep in mind I don't need to power game and i love the skills and other parts D&D includes. In fact i often make wizard/thief or wizard/fighters to make a more "rounded" character. However, it can be balanced and still have lots of magic items, etc.

But teleport is just one big frustration to me when higher levels can probably fly instead of using horses for instance but can't teleport now. Portals are useful but in what world would a portal be unguarded by something powerful? I mean if you knew about it why not "tax" it. Why wouldn't the local lord prevent people from it, etc. I feel third tier characters should have more options.

In my games portal knowledge is rare and a benefit of a character who invests in the proper skills. I guess people can get magical mounts too, etc.

One of the key pillars of D&D is exploration, which kinda goes away when you just teleport everywhere. However as you say, for campaign specific options, portal magic has a lot of virtues. Or (since you're the GM) you can just dump teleport down a few levels.

As far as regulating it goes, it depends? The potential profit in trade and taxes from allowing public use and charging tolls is obscene. Or what if a merchant house had sponsored the original research and controlled the construction of portals? Or maybe it is a lost tech, rediscovered by adventurers in a repressive kingdom and they've taken to using them as an undewrground railroad? Lots of possibilities.

And really, it doesn't pay to overthink these things, or you'll start wondering why in 3.x the trade in magic item components wasn't heavily regulated....

 

[Sadrik]

I have concerns over this as well. Only having 1 spell per day of your higher level slots does seem quite limiting, and really not very fun. Combined with the concentration buff spells this is a massive nerf to spell casters.

It's true that in 3.5 spellcasters do get too much good stuff at the higher levels. They do eclipse the martial classes to a large degree. I worry that these 5E nerfs might be too much though, and that they might make playing a high level caster more annoying than fun.

At first I was loving reading through the cool redesigned high level spells in the Basic pdf. The new Foresight spell is awesome. It looks like it's actually worthy of being a 9th level spell now. I was looking forward to having a Wizard who could cast that spell some day. But now, realizing that a character only ever gets 1x of those per day really makes it a lot less exciting.

I suspect I will never be able to "waste" my only 9th level slot on something like Foresight. That's still just not enough bang, not enough of a encounter swinging power, for your highest level spell slot that you only get to cast 1x of each day. And if it ever does get cast it will certainly be just as buff on the BSF for the advantage on attack rolls part of it. Sigh.. It's disappointing, really.

I also had these same concerns. I thought an interesting way to alter the spell chart to accommodate scaling spells would have been to give a caster 20 spell slots whether level 1 or level 20. What depended was which spell levels those slots were in.

I made a chart but cannot port it in. Here are the highlights:
Level 1 you get 20 1st level slots
Level 20 you get 8 5th, 1 6th, 3 7th, 4 8th, and 4 9th

You can always use an upper level spell slot for a lower level spell so there is no issue there. Handles the scaling exceedingly well. Where it breaks down is the power level of the 1st level slots they do very good damage. If they did more like 5e cantrip damage or damage like in 1e/2e/3e (MM 1d4+1, Burning hands 1d6, Shocking grasp 1d8 etc) then I think it would have been ok. With them doing 3dX they do too much for casters to have 20 slots up front. Basically 5e unlimited damage cantrip concept is encompassed in the 20 slots/day. A good thought experiment.

 

[sithramir]

I have concerns over this as well. Only having 1 spell per day of your higher level slots does seem quite limiting, and really not very fun. Combined with the concentration buff spells this is a massive nerf to spell casters.

It's true that in 3.5 spellcasters do get too much good stuff at the higher levels. They do eclipse the martial classes to a large degree. I worry that these 5E nerfs might be too much though, and that they might make playing a high level caster more annoying than fun.

At first I was loving reading through the cool redesigned high level spells in the Basic pdf. The new Foresight spell is awesome. It looks like it's actually worthy of being a 9th level spell now. I was looking forward to having a Wizard who could cast that spell some day. But now, realizing that a character only ever gets 1x of those per day really makes it a lot less exciting.

I suspect I will never be able to "waste" my only 9th level slot on something like Foresight. That's still just not enough bang, not enough of a encounter swinging power, for your highest level spell slot that you only get to cast 1x of each day. And if it ever does get cast it will certainly be just as buff on the BSF for the advantage on attack rolls part of it. Sigh.. It's disappointing, really.

This is exactly my concern. I'd love to have foresight (and it can be memorized) but would I really waste my one spell slot for it? At higher levels like that you NEED powerful magic. Not necessarily damaging meteor swarm style either. I get the need for balance but make it 2 slots!

Or make the other spells have harder or unique component requirements. I hate that but finding the components can also be fun. It doesnt have to have a coin value either. Then its "do I waste my rare elemental fire essence to meteor swarm" or will a level 6 fireball suffice?

Or maybe its one slot but it can regen in another encounter on the same day. Something to balance it but not ruin it. I'm a bit of a miser and feel I'd end up using those spells LESS because I only had one.

 

[Tony Vargas]

This is exactly my concern. I'd love to have foresight (and it can be memorized) but would I really waste my one spell slot for it? At higher levels like that you NEED powerful magic.

That's a decision you can make during the day. You could prep Foresight, but use your 9th level slot for a higher-level casting of a lower-level spell, or even a different 9th level spell if you decided to prepare another.