A Fighters skill points....

[reapersaurus]

Maybe not run out of spells completely, but we regularily have to resort to less than optimum spells, because the best ones are used up already, or save better spells and use other ones, because it's still a lot to be expected.

Some of the best combat feats are used up more often than spells (Power Critical, Smite Evil, Divine Might, etc).

Also, a FTR-type can easily be rendered ineffective simply by someone Disarming or Sundering his specialized weapon, in which case he has to resort to "less than optimum weapons", and probably becomes about as effective as a glorified Warrior-class.

 

[Thanee]

* Their Familiar is an extra 50% of HP's, just sitting there waiting if they want to use (many people forget this).

And how exactly would that help the wizard (i.e. how do they benefit from those hit points, it's not like the familiar can move them over to the wizard or anything)?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Storminator]

<SNIP>

I hope this points out how your statements that a Wizard is more likely to die, and is less powerful at low level, are fallacious arguments.
But it's all opinion, and most opinions don't change regardless of persuasive arguments to the contrary, I just hope you can see the other side, KD.

It's been my experience that wizards die more often. Lots more often.

I have a campaign where the wizard deaths are greater than all other classes combined.

All the way up to 3rd level you can be killed by an AoO, and your Concentration score isn't that high, so it'll come up. And a 4 hp orc can drop a 6th level wizard on a crit.

And if you spend half your spells making yourself survive, you run out of spells much quicker.

PS

 

[The_DarkAngel]

Some of you guys should consider judging a class from 1st through 20th level when considering a class is unbalanced or not. Wizards for example suck at lower levels but are mean as hell at high levels. There for yes I would consider that a fair trade off. In terms of breaking down classes into a point system, everything must be considered.

In terms of my 3.5 campaign:

1) The bard and the ranger both recieve 4 skill points per level not 6.

2) The Sorcerer gains 1D6 hit Points.

3) The Barbarian gains the Endurance feat at 3rd level.

4) The Rouge gains special abilities at 7th level.

5) The fighter gains 2 core class skills at 1st, and at 11th, 15th, and 19th gains special combat abilites, keeping the class true to its name and making it on avg the best Fighting class as it should, as well as a reason to continue in the class in higher levels.

Again, not all of you may agree but apperently alot do. Most of these ideas are founded by Arcana Unearthed were even Montecook has bolstered the Fighter class considerably over the one listed in 3.5. without having to depend on prestige classes. The AU version of a fighter has 1D12 hitpoints, 2 more class skills, 12 total feats (1st thru 20th), crushing blow ability 2/Day, and his will saves are increased to +9 max at 20th level. I should also mention armor classes reach the 12 AC rating instead of 8AC in 3.5, giving a real meaning to armor. This my friends is a class much more physical then the 3.5 fighting class.

DA

 

[FrankTrollman]

Some of you guys should consider judging a class from 1st through 20th level when considering a class is unbalanced or not.

I disagree. Class balance happens at every level, not at some mythical hybrid level of all the levels combined. Noone plays at "1st through 20th" - they play at first level, and then at 2nd level, and so on.

Wizards for example suck at lower levels but are mean as hell at high levels.

The part I'm not seeing is the part where supposedly they suck at low levels. At first level you get Sleep. It affects 4 enemies of your level, and if they fail a Will save they are helplss and out of the combat for 10 combat rounds. It's combat ending, and it's a single action that is extremely likely to succeed.

The Wizard can cast that twice a day before we get into stuff like school specialization and Int Bonus races/feats (such as Gray Elves or Spellcasting Prodigy). A Gray Elven Enchanter can squeeze off four multi-target save-or-dies in a day. In what way does that ever "suck"?

Even, perhaps especially, at first level, the Wizard has an intense lead in offensive power over any other character class. I just can't agree with the argument that he in any way "sucks" at this point.

-Frank

 

[Crothian]

When the wizard looses initiative, gets attack, and falls below zero hitpoints on an average damage roll.

 

[KarinsDad]

OK, let's have a 9th level Diviner

Ok, so 9th level is now high level as opposed to mid level?

Do you have any other bold assertions that you want to make that can be disproved that easily?

Disproved? Hmmm.

I was not including magic items in that statement.

So yes, with a magic item that boosts his Int, a maxxed out Int Wizard can get 6 spells every two levels at high level. Without such an item, no Wizard after 9th level gains any additional bonus spells with the sole exception of 16th level where they could conceivable get 2 extra bonus spells.

Just like with a magic item specifically designed for him, a Fighter can be more effective as well.

However, I thought this discussion was without magic items.

If I give a Fighter a Cube of Force and he puts it on the "keep out magic setting", he will in a one on one fight, kick the butt on nearly every Wizard out there. Once you pull in magic items, you open the Pandora's box of total nonsense with regard to comparisons.

If I give a Fighter 100,000 GP, he can hire a bunch of Wizards to go kick the opposing Wizards butt.

But, let's keep the comparisons to class versus class abilities and not the esoteric ones of class with one set of resources versus class with another set. Shall we?

 

[Storminator]

I disagree. Class balance happens at every level, not at some mythical hybrid level of all the levels combined. Noone plays at "1st through 20th" - they play at first level, and then at 2nd level, and so on.

I agree with this, even tho the phenomenon is still there.

The part I'm not seeing is the part where supposedly they suck at low levels. At first level you get Sleep. It affects 4 enemies of your level, and if they fail a Will save they are helplss and out of the combat for 10 combat rounds. It's combat ending, and it's a single action that is extremely likely to succeed.

It's a full round action to cast, which means it almost never gets off. Much to easy to disrupt, and for a 1st level wizard, that usually means you lose the spell because you're in negative hit points.

The Wizard can cast that twice a day before we get into stuff like school specialization and Int Bonus races/feats (such as Gray Elves or Spellcasting Prodigy). A Gray Elven Enchanter can squeeze off four multi-target save-or-dies in a day. In what way does that ever "suck"?

But that also means you can't do any of the other things a wizard is supposed to do for his party. And you can't have those up while you have Mage Armor and/or Shield up. So if we assume a more realistic PC, one with 3 1st level spells per day, you spend one of them on a defensive spell and one on a utility spell, which leaves you one save-or-die, which you hope and pray you get off. And if it succeeds, it's usually because you were standing behind ... a fighter.

Even, perhaps especially, at first level, the Wizard has an intense lead in offensive power over any other character class. I just can't agree with the argument that he in any way "sucks" at this point.

-Frank

PS

 

[takyris]

Allow me to repeat in slightly plainer language: Feats don't get blown in the first battle. With a very few exceptions, you can use 'em all day. Over the course of the game, Quick Draw and Power Attack are better bets than Fireball.

If your wizard has ever run out of fireballs, has ever run into a creature that is immune to fireballs, or has been stuck with a bunch of fireballs prepared on a day when other spells would have been more useful, then the wizard is feeling the pinch of the other side. The wizard gains focus at the expense of flexibility.

If we're talking about a sorcerer, then the issue is not preparation but overall flexibility. If you're taking fireball, then you better hope your DM isn't planning a campaign based on evil marauding fire elementals -- or, for that matter, a campaign that focuses on monks and rogues that tumble into the midst of the party to attack. If you can't hit them without hitting your friends, and if they have evasion, Fireball becomes a much weaker spell.

Power Attack, on the other hand, can be useful in almost any combat situation. And the fighter is never under the onus of HAVING to use it -- because it's not like it's the only good third-level offensive spell he's got. He can choose to use Expertise or Power Attack or Improved Trip or whatever at his leisure.

 

[reapersaurus]

umm.. I can't believe this discussion has gotten to the point of absurdity where Power Attack and Quick Draw are being compared to Fireball.

Hmm.. let's see. Changing weapons as a free action, and a -4 to attack and +8 to damage (if it hits) to one target VS 9d6 damage to multiple targets.
Come on.

KD - I didn't catch your reply.

Everyone - I just thought of the ACTUAL comparison one should think about when comparing spellcaster levels and fighter levels.
If all other abilities are a wash, we're left with the questionable equation of
2 spellcasting levels = 1 FTR feat ??

Well, let's not be ephemeral - let's put a face on it.
I'll take the example of when a Wizard and Fighter goes from level 5 to 7.

The wizard gets 1 1st level spell, 1 2nd level, 1 3rd level and 1 4th level (if only 18 INT). This basically gives him access to a "feat" that allows him to : (each once per day)
1) Spend a standard action to get +20 to his next attack
2) "" to get +4 to STR for many minutes (+2 to attack and damage, at the minimum)
3) "" to get +2 to attack, saves, and skill checks for over an hour.
4) "" to go Invisible for 1 rnd/level.

And what does the Ftr get in comparison?
ONE FEAT.
Let's say he gets +1 to attack with ONE weapon, all the time.

Whoop de doo!