A Hit Point Proposal
- Thread starter Jeff Carlsen
- Start date
Libramarian
Adventurer
Any HP system has the effect where the less HP you have, the more likely you are to lose and die. That's the whole point. Every system has a "death spiral", it just depends on the implementation.
Some implementations are mathematically more punishing and less heroic than others, some feel more punishing and less heroic (considered separately from their purely mathematical effect), and some people like that feel and others don't.
I don't really mind the proposal in the OP. It's not that complicated.
But I still prefer a simple HP pool. Run out and make a CON save: success and you're disabled, lose and you're dead.
Or count damage up to a Kill Value instead of down to zero. For every 10 damage that you're walking around "carrying", take a -1 penalty to all d20 rolls.
Some implementations are mathematically more punishing and less heroic than others, some feel more punishing and less heroic (considered separately from their purely mathematical effect), and some people like that feel and others don't.
I don't really mind the proposal in the OP. It's not that complicated.
But I still prefer a simple HP pool. Run out and make a CON save: success and you're disabled, lose and you're dead.
Or count damage up to a Kill Value instead of down to zero. For every 10 damage that you're walking around "carrying", take a -1 penalty to all d20 rolls.
Crazy Jerome
First Post
Technically, for something to be a death spiral, it has to seriously crimp your effectiveness while still allowing you to act. This sets up the situation where you are more likely to get "crimped" again, thus becoming even less effective. Once you are down and dying, unable to act, the "spiral" part is over.
Why would you limit it to having actions? You are much more likely to die from a fireball if you are unconscious so aren't you spiraling towards death? If you have penalties and you lie down and play dead, is the spiral over?
Rhenny
Adventurer
Death spiral is a moot point. In combat, when you are a group fighting together, when one PC is "gimped" or "crimped" or unconscious, or dying, it is the responsibility of the other PCs to aid him or her. That is what adds dramatic tension to a combat. That is why adventurers travel in groups not alone.
When a PC goes down, and is dying...he or she should shout out and make horribly dramatic death noises. Then, everyone knows that the PC is in trouble. #1 priority - save the fallen.
If I suffer a horrible wound (-2 to actions or incapacitation) I'll yell out for help. If someone can aid me great...no more death spiral.
When a PC goes down, and is dying...he or she should shout out and make horribly dramatic death noises. Then, everyone knows that the PC is in trouble. #1 priority - save the fallen.
If I suffer a horrible wound (-2 to actions or incapacitation) I'll yell out for help. If someone can aid me great...no more death spiral.
Crazy Jerome
First Post
I'm not limiting it. I'm merely saying what the term has historically meant. Consider one of the original images:
You are (Snoopy?) in a WWI fighter plane. It's made out of wood, fabric, and bits of metal, but a good chunk of its cross section is only air or other things that aren't absolutely critical to keeping you aloft right this moment. You get into a tussle with the Red Baron. You burn some ammo, take a few minor knicks in the body of the plane, bloody your hand pulling it out of the way--but no spiral yet. You aren't 100%, but you can fight like you are. No death spiral has yet begun.
Then you take a nasty hit on one of the wings. You start to lose altitude. You can't evade to the right very well. The Baron comes in for another pass. You outsmart him with a barrel roll and quick loop, take a shot, but that wing makes you shake and you miss. Next time he comes around, he nails you again. The plan starts spiraling down, not completely under your control. Fortunatley for you, one of your buddies engages the Baron. So at least you have a chance.
As you continue to spiral down in this classic "death spiral" things get worse the longer it goes. The structure starts to shake. You lose pieces. This makes it even harder to get control. You spin around and around, and finally crash into the ground. You plane is burning, and the "death spiral" is now over.
"Aha," you say, it only ends when you are dead, but you were effectively dead when you went into it. That was true for awhile. Then a desperate Allied aviator found out the trick (having nothing better to do in the few seconds he otherwise had left)--deliberately go into a dive to escape the spiral, and then pull out. Just make sure you start while you still have room to pull out and structure left to handle it.
That is, you can still act, but your options are increasingly limited. All the guys that didn't figure this out before tried things too. They simply didn't work.As long as you still have options (i.e. can act) but are getting more limited and less effective as the spiral continues, you are in a death spiral. When you no longer have options, the spiral is over. That doesn't mean the options have to be good ones.
Crazy Jerome
First Post
It should be noted that D&D has always had a bit of a "party death spiral" effect, even when it did not have the classic death spiral for a given character. That is, each party member that is taken out reduces the ability of the rest of the party to respond to the threat, increasing the chance that they will also be taken out. Some TPKs happen this way, when everything seems to be going good, but a key member going down unravels the whole thing rapidly. Of course, the balancing factor here is that the monsters have the same problem.
In a MMORPG, this party death spiral is often extreme, because of the delicate balancing act to keep the party alive. In the old Asheron's Call, I had a bit under-powered healer. We once managed to keep eight or nine characters up for a couple of hours, in a tough room, through team work and staying on the monsters. Then three of the tougher ones spawned at once, locked in on me, and all got crits. Within 30 seconds, the whole party was dead.
In a MMORPG, this party death spiral is often extreme, because of the delicate balancing act to keep the party alive. In the old Asheron's Call, I had a bit under-powered healer. We once managed to keep eight or nine characters up for a couple of hours, in a tough room, through team work and staying on the monsters. Then three of the tougher ones spawned at once, locked in on me, and all got crits. Within 30 seconds, the whole party was dead.
3catcircus
Adventurer
Two Words
Twilight:2013.
If you want a hit point system that is less abstract than D&D currently has, all you need to do is read the system used by Twilight:2013.
"Base hp" is based solely on their equivalent of STR and CON. With average STR and CON of 10, Base HP would be (10 + STR + 2*Con)/4 = 10 hp. There are no hp increases like you would get as you go up in level in D&D.
Next, you take those base hp and use multiples of them to trip different wound thresholds (they are a bit more complex since they use hit locations in the core TW:2013 rules, so different locations have different thresholds, but in the less-complex Stage I rules, they use the torso only, which we could use here for illustrative purposes).
Take 1 hp of damage and you suffer a slight wound. Take base hp of damage and you suffer a medium wound, 2x base hp and you take a serious wound, 3x base hp and you suffer a critical wound.
Where this system diverges from a standard hp system is that you don't just add up damage until you reach each threshold - they are independent based upon each wound by itself. So - you could take 1 hp of damage to the head with one hit and have a slight wound there, while an attack that did 12 hp of damage to the arm causes a medium wound there. Taking a 2nd wound of the same type to the same location causes the wound category to increase, but then another wound of the same type would be a non-issue since you are already suffering a higher level wound.
Each type of wound category does certain things - from just impairing your activities (penalties to skill checks, attacks, etc.), to causing you to lose the use of your limbs or changing your maximum movement rate, to incapacitation. There are rules for going into shock and for bleeding out.
So, an example:
Our hero is facing off against a gnoll.
The hero has STR 16 and CON 15, so his base hp is 14.
The gnoll has STR 15 and CON 13, so his base hp is 12.
The hero attacks first and does 10 points of damage to the gnoll, resulting in a slight wound. The gnoll is now suffering a slight wound, so all his physical actions are at a -1 penalty.
The gnoll attacks at -1 penalty and manages to hit the hero for 5 hp of damage, so the hero is also at a -1 penalty.
The hero's next attack is a critical hit and he ends up doing 15 points of damage. This is more than the gnoll's base hp, so he ends up suffering a medium wound. The gnoll is now -2 to all physical checks and must make a check or go into shock. The gnoll fails, but fails by only a single point. The gnoll loses his attack this round due to going into shock.
The hero presses his advantage and scores a hit, doing 10 points of damage. Since the gnoll already took a slight wound, this second slight wound results in another medium wound, so he must make a check or go into shock. Unfortunately (again at a -2 penalty), he fails and goes into shock again - but - since he was already in shock, any additional effect of going into shock now is going to make him unstable. The gnoll is beginning to bleed out. He loses his attack this round also. At the end of this round, the gnoll's wound level increase to serious. He is now at -3 to all physical checks but manages to make his check to avoid shock/instability.
The next round, the hero attacks and scores another slight wound (causing 6 hp of damage). The gnoll, at a -3 penalty, fails to hit. At the end of this round, still bleeding out, the gnoll's wound level increases to critical and he is at a -4 penalty to all physical checks. He fails his shock/instability check and the death spiral continues. At the end of the round, the gnoll's critical wound level increases and the gnoll expires.
Had the gnoll succeeded at his first shock check or a had another gnoll applied some first aid when the gnoll first began to become unstable, the outcome of this battle could have been different - either lasting longer or even ending with the hero dead.
Additionally, the basic combat system would need to be tweaked to be similar to TW:2013's in that the amount that your attack roll exceeds the number needed to hit would need to be added to your damage, in order to prevent things degenerating into a slap-fight.
Twilight:2013.
If you want a hit point system that is less abstract than D&D currently has, all you need to do is read the system used by Twilight:2013.
"Base hp" is based solely on their equivalent of STR and CON. With average STR and CON of 10, Base HP would be (10 + STR + 2*Con)/4 = 10 hp. There are no hp increases like you would get as you go up in level in D&D.
Next, you take those base hp and use multiples of them to trip different wound thresholds (they are a bit more complex since they use hit locations in the core TW:2013 rules, so different locations have different thresholds, but in the less-complex Stage I rules, they use the torso only, which we could use here for illustrative purposes).
Take 1 hp of damage and you suffer a slight wound. Take base hp of damage and you suffer a medium wound, 2x base hp and you take a serious wound, 3x base hp and you suffer a critical wound.
Where this system diverges from a standard hp system is that you don't just add up damage until you reach each threshold - they are independent based upon each wound by itself. So - you could take 1 hp of damage to the head with one hit and have a slight wound there, while an attack that did 12 hp of damage to the arm causes a medium wound there. Taking a 2nd wound of the same type to the same location causes the wound category to increase, but then another wound of the same type would be a non-issue since you are already suffering a higher level wound.
Each type of wound category does certain things - from just impairing your activities (penalties to skill checks, attacks, etc.), to causing you to lose the use of your limbs or changing your maximum movement rate, to incapacitation. There are rules for going into shock and for bleeding out.
So, an example:
Our hero is facing off against a gnoll.
The hero has STR 16 and CON 15, so his base hp is 14.
The gnoll has STR 15 and CON 13, so his base hp is 12.
The hero attacks first and does 10 points of damage to the gnoll, resulting in a slight wound. The gnoll is now suffering a slight wound, so all his physical actions are at a -1 penalty.
The gnoll attacks at -1 penalty and manages to hit the hero for 5 hp of damage, so the hero is also at a -1 penalty.
The hero's next attack is a critical hit and he ends up doing 15 points of damage. This is more than the gnoll's base hp, so he ends up suffering a medium wound. The gnoll is now -2 to all physical checks and must make a check or go into shock. The gnoll fails, but fails by only a single point. The gnoll loses his attack this round due to going into shock.
The hero presses his advantage and scores a hit, doing 10 points of damage. Since the gnoll already took a slight wound, this second slight wound results in another medium wound, so he must make a check or go into shock. Unfortunately (again at a -2 penalty), he fails and goes into shock again - but - since he was already in shock, any additional effect of going into shock now is going to make him unstable. The gnoll is beginning to bleed out. He loses his attack this round also. At the end of this round, the gnoll's wound level increase to serious. He is now at -3 to all physical checks but manages to make his check to avoid shock/instability.
The next round, the hero attacks and scores another slight wound (causing 6 hp of damage). The gnoll, at a -3 penalty, fails to hit. At the end of this round, still bleeding out, the gnoll's wound level increases to critical and he is at a -4 penalty to all physical checks. He fails his shock/instability check and the death spiral continues. At the end of the round, the gnoll's critical wound level increases and the gnoll expires.
Had the gnoll succeeded at his first shock check or a had another gnoll applied some first aid when the gnoll first began to become unstable, the outcome of this battle could have been different - either lasting longer or even ending with the hero dead.
Additionally, the basic combat system would need to be tweaked to be similar to TW:2013's in that the amount that your attack roll exceeds the number needed to hit would need to be added to your damage, in order to prevent things degenerating into a slap-fight.
Jeff Carlsen
Adventurer
While I like damage systems that resemble that (Savage Worlds uses a wound system), that method is definitely taking it too far for D&D. Those that want simple hit points will never be happy with a progressive wound system.
That's why my proposal has a nod to realism with the wounded condition, but relegates it to the area previously limited to being unconscious and dying. It says, "you're perfectly able, until your not. Then you might be dead, dying, unconscious, or wounded, and probably more than one."
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