A leveling way to limit access to magic?

[el-remmen]

I wish I had thought of this when I first switched over to 3E - but I have seen it suggested in other places, and I think it is an elegant idea that can work just fine.

For my "moderate" magic uses, I would make the limit no more than 2 spell-casting levels in a row and create a PC-comparible expert class for those who still want to play the straight-up wizardly smart guy type.

 

[Elf Witch]

I agree. Seriously. I'm overreacting.

Let's be clear: I speak of my potential reaction, and thus, I'm trying to give some meaningful advice as to how players who share the same inclinations as I might react.

Let me put it another way: I've come to consider the games I want to be a part of much more carefully over the years. I have many friends running games, I have the opportunity to play or run whatever game I want when the occasion presents itself.

When I'm coming to play a D&D game, I now understand I intend to play D&D. This means I don't want to play some campaign that tries to destroy the D&D feel or not embrace it. Further, I don't want to play D&D with a DM who doesn't like D&D in the first place.

Want to run a low magic game? Other systems abound. I understand why game masters out there do use D&D of course: it's sort of a common denominator to most gamers. If you play RPGs, chances are you know d20, so the DM doesn't have to teach a whole another system. But then, why not use Grim Tales, Iron Heroes, or whatever variations of d20? Run a low magic d20 sure, but don't call it "D&D".

Personally, I'm not a newbie in terms of game systems. Tell me you're going to run a Warhammer game that's going to be grim, with lots of blood spilled and a deadly occult conspiration from the forces of Chaos we should oppose, and I'm all yours. Tell me we're playing a medieval Call of Cthulhu game and I'm all yours. Tell me we're playing an epic Iron Heroes game and once again, I'm all yours. Tell me we're playing a D&D game but you changed the magic system because it stinks, and I'll pass.

Why do I use DnD to run my low magic greek campaign? It is like you said it is what people are familiar with I don't have to learn a new system or buy new books and neither do my players.

I don't think the magic system stinks but it is to powerful for my setting and Iron Heroes which I did look at was not what I wanted it didn't work for what I was planning.

My players have been playing since the game came out first with the little paper set and then first edition we are all close to our 50s and we have played a lot of games and to us their is no one DnD "feel" to us DnD can mean many things from a high magic dungeon crawl to a poltical intrigue game full of puzzles and mysteries.

We have used DnD rules to play all kinds of settings from a pirate swashbuckling game with no paladins or clerics in heavy armor to King Arthur knights of the round tables type world with nothing but humans allowed.

Sure sometimes it required some tweaking but we have so far never found the need to go to an entirely different system.

 

[Wik]

There's a way around this....

Alternate between wizard and cleric. Then, take mystic theurge, and alternate between theurge (or some other spellcasting PrC), and wizard or cleric. Sure, your progression is still going to be lower than it would be if you straight classed, but you'll still be getting those 9th level spells.

 

[Sejs]

Your insight and/or opinions, please.
The DM decrees that PCs (and NPCs, out of fairness) are prohibited from taking two consecutive levels of the same spell-casting class as they gain experience -- if you want to progress in that class, you've got to multiclass with something else inbetween levels.

Is that just for primary spellcasters (wizard, cleric, druid), or for the hybrid spellcasters like bard, rangers, and paladins who already have a very slow, very wishy-washy spellcasting advancement built in?

For one thing, it'd make a paladin pretty much impossible. Get to level 4, take your next level as something else, never get back into paladin again.

 

[Wik]

Now, if that doesn't work, an easier way to do "low-magic" without messing with the system is this:

Give each spellcaster PC a "budget" of spells. What you essentially say is "if this were a movie, each time you describe a spell you cast as being something that we'd need to bring in a special effects guy to show, you spend a point. If it's something REALLY big (Fireball), it's 2, or even 3 points. If you go over the budget, you're docked 10% XP. If you go over twice the budget, you're docked 25%.

Suddenly, Cure Light Wounds consists of the caster making a special tea that heals the wounded character. Detect Magic is simply "knowing" what's magical, and doesn't involve anything glowing. Charm Person becomes very useful, because there's no "FX" involved in its casting. Players get really creative trying to justify why certain spells don't cost anything in terms of budget; they also stop using things like Haste, Fireball, and Fly every combat they can.

It's a nice system, and it makes your games FEEL like low-magic, without having to change the rules. If you're going to do this, though, I recommend using the spell-less Ranger and Paladin variants.

 

[Odhanan]

Answer to Elf Witch:

There's nothing wrong with tweaking the system to fit the campaign's aims in feel and "texture" (so long as everyone agrees around the table, I can't see why it wouldn't be okay).

Really, Elf Witch, I'm not trying to say "hey, that way to play the game sucks!". If the tone of my writing made you think of it, then I'm sorry. Indeed, I overreacted.

What I'm clearly saying, however, is that when I want to play D&D, I want to play D&D. My tastes have evolved. They didn't become more narrow (I'd still play a wide array of RPGs I like, really, that's what my "if you tell me... you got me" examples were there for), but they became clearer as time went on.

That's why I'm saying I wouldn't play a game that tweaks D&D so much that isn't D&D to me anymore. Heavily houseruling Magic, for instance, changes D&D into something else for me. I've been burnt on this one with DMs telling me "I'll run a D&D game" and then when I show up I discover that this is not D&D but some houseruled version or just a game that uses some D&D rules but isn't D&D. I'm tired of that kind of game, hence my overreacting here.

And really, friendly, I point this out here because this might be relevant to the OP because of some players he might play with who would share the same opinions as I, and to a wider audience to feel that sometimes, for players like me, it can be extremely disappointing to run into campaigns advertised by their DMs as "D&D games" that just aren't D&D. The DMs running D&D and actually disliking D&D (or a huge part of its premises thereof) has become a huge pet peeve of mine recently.

 

[blargney the second]

We just started a campaign with a similar restriction: caster level no more than half of your ECL. To make up for decreased healing capacity, we're using the Damage Conversion variant from Unearthed Arcana (armor bonus gets converted to nonlethal damage).

It's an Eberron game, so lower level magic items will be much easier to find and purchase than high level ones. More powerful magic items will be found in treasure, including spell effects as potent as their level (like a CL 5th wand of fireballs at 5th level). Dragonmarks will be more useful and valuable, which is no bad thing in my books!

When you get a group of 5-6 people sitting down and figuring out how to make a game work according to how they all want, it's not that hard to sort things out.

 

[pawsplay]

I think I might be inclined to just rip off d20 Modern... spellcasting classes are advanced classes (that is, low barrier of entry prestige classes), spells are limited to 5th level spells, and incantations (ritual magic) is used for most powerful effects.

 

[Driddle]

Honestly, I wouldn't play in such a game. That screams "The DM is scared of PCs spells" to me, which points out to a paranoid DM and an opposition DM/Player where you have to explain every choice you make on the defensive. I made a rule of not participating in such games - if the DM doesn't trust me, there's no point for me to be at the game table.

Okey-dokey, then. We'll be sure to take your name off the invitation list.
By the way, I called the DM before logging on tonight to ask him why he doesn't trust you. No answer yet ...

(Reading waaaay too much into a hypothetical.)

 

[Elf Witch]

Answer to Elf Witch:

There's nothing wrong with tweaking the system to fit the campaign's aims in feel and "texture" (so long as everyone agrees around the table, I can't see why it wouldn't be okay).

Really, Elf Witch, I'm not trying to say "hey, that way to play the game sucks!". If the tone of my writing made you think of it, then I'm sorry. Indeed, I overreacted.

What I'm clearly saying, however, is that when I want to play D&D, I want to play D&D. My tastes have evolved. They didn't become more narrow (I'd still play a wide array of RPGs I like, really, that's what my "if you tell me... you got me" examples were there for), but they became clearer as time went on.

That's why I'm saying I wouldn't play a game that tweaks D&D so much that isn't D&D to me anymore. Heavily houseruling Magic, for instance, changes D&D into something else for me. I've been burnt on this one with DMs telling me "I'll run a D&D game" and then when I show up I discover that this is not D&D but some houseruled version or just a game that uses some D&D rules but isn't D&D. I'm tired of that kind of game, hence my overreacting here.

And really, friendly, I point this out here because this might be relevant to the OP because of some players he might play with who would share the same opinions as I, and to a wider audience to feel that sometimes, for players like me, it can be extremely disappointing to run into campaigns advertised by their DMs as "D&D games" that just aren't D&D. The DMs running D&D and actually disliking D&D (or a huge part of its premises thereof) has become a huge pet peeve of mine recently.

Got you thanks for explaining.

I have to agree with you on the DMs who really dislike DnD so they house rule until it is no longer DnD I don't enjoy those type of games very much myself.

We like DnD we all know the rules which is why we use the system for most of the games we play. We thought about using 7 Seas for the pirate game but it went out of print and we had only two copies of the players handbook so in the end the DM just used some of the stuff from Kalamar's Salt and Sea Dogs and gave us a list of classes and races that were in his game.

In my greek game I don't have clerics I have priest and they each have their own spell list based on their gods to make the list I pulled from both arcane and divine spells. So for example a priest of Apollo has a different spell list than a priest of Ares. But it is easy for my players because they know these spells they are in the players handbook.

I guess you could say that we are lazy we really don't want to have to learn a new system just because we are in the mood for something a little different.