A leveling way to limit access to magic?

[Zelda Themelin]

Ah simple, I woudnt't play spellcaster. Maybe one spellcaster lv for for some character concept but no more.

I like low magic games, but then challenges must also be suited for characters who don't have access to buffs, magic weapons and other extras, system normally expects them to have.

It's not only thing D&D system expects, I am currenly playing in game where there is no healer of any kind in party, and all the money goes for healing items and it's not even enough.

Magic is utility. Fighter-types with right feats are the true damage dealers. This is even more true at highter levels.

 

[Valesin]

If you want a low magic game, why not just ban spellcasters outright?

I know if I were playing in a game with a system like that, I wouldn't even consider a spellcaster playable.

Because that would just make it a no-magic game, and the DM clearly wants a low-magic game.

 

[Remathilis]

Here's my suggestion.

Use the Generic Classes from Unearthed Arcana. (Even the spellcaster as is).

Then, cut through the PHB and eliminate any spell that doesn't work for your game.

Problem Solved.

Ok... longer version.

Say you want magic that is practical, natural, and has a kinda craft/witch/druidic flavor, but no real flashy spells or powerful game-breakers. Now, go through the PHB. Decide what kinda spells you want and don't want. For example:

Divinations: Most of these are ok spells that add flavor but don't break things terrible. Remove the most potent/abusive (detect evil, commune) and you're good.

Healing: Keep as many as you like; use the conversion method if you want to be slower.

Teleport/Extra-dimensional: Nope. Movement Magic is rare.

Protection/Abjuration: Most of these will be fine, such as protection from evil or dispel magic.

Attack/Evocations: Remove the potent/staple ones; no fireball, etc. You can keep some attack magic, but make them weaker for there level (produce flame, not burning hands; call lightning not lightning bolt)

Ressurection: Either none or perhaps just keep Ressurection and remove Raise Dead and True Ress.

Summons: Planar summons are too much, but nature's allies seem fine

Enchantments: Keep them simple. Charm is ok, domination is not. Spells like hold become potent with spells like magic missile gone.

Animal Magic: Keep em.

Necromancy: Either it doesn't work, or add an element of corruption to it (like Taint or Sanity)

Illusions: If you keep to the images; you'll be fine. Avoid the deadly illusions and shadow magic.

Buffs/Transmutation: This could require finesse. Spells like Bull's Str and nice, but higher ones (like Divine Power) are too good.

So what does our spellcaster list look like? Its full of pratical spells (light), healing, natural magic, enchantments, a few divinations and illusions, and some buff magic. However, he lacks the stronger illusions, dominations, powerful evocations and powerful summons. He's a much more defensive caster, and might do well (in the generic system) to multi-class a bit. Hence, the warriors and experts shine, and the spellcasters don't get watered down, but are kept in check and have a flavorful list of spells.

 

[jmucchiello]

I hate low magic stuff generally. (In fact I want to run a game where all characters are basically sorcerer-X gestalts but that's off topic.) If I were to run a game with limits on magic, I would put the onus for limiting magic entirely in the players' hands.

- Spellcasting comes at a cost: 1 hp/spell level + 1 hp/1 minute duration of spell.
- Spending more than half your normal hit point total within a 24 hour period (regardless of intervening healing effects) causes you to become fatigued until you regain those hit points. (Spending those hit points again while fatigued moves you to exhausted as usual.)
- Some spells might have higher or lower hp costs, depending on campaign flavor.
- No permanent magic items, but allow hypermasterwork items to exist. (A doubly masterwork sword grants a +2 enhancement bonus to your attack roll. Not sure of the cost structure. Masterwork can also provide non-so-magical abilities to a weapon: keen, speed, etc are good, holy, flaming, etc are bad.)
- Any spell can be placed into a potion or scroll (as appropriate), they cost no hp to use.
- Healing spells. (Haven't decided.) Probably only available in potion and alchemical form.

Let the sorcerer throw a bunch of fireballs around. He doesn't have a good CON (nor an amulet of health) so he eventually has access to more spells than he has hit points with which to cast them.

The lack of permanent magic obviously means being careful with high magic monsters. The masterwork system would make up for that as long as high masterwork items counted as magical for DR purposes. Also, divine channeling could make up for the lack of holy, flaming, and similar properties on weapons.

I still want to see disintegrates and meteor swarms. Granted there won't be many of them. But when they occur, they will be memorable.

 

[TerraDave]

I think the easy way to deal with this and related issues:

Say the highest (charecter) level is 12 or so. Thats it. This has the advantage of not changing (other) rules, and has a certain realism to it since campaings often do not last as long or move as quickly as hoped (ie it will die anyways by the time the really wacky spells start to come into play). If a lot of play really is anticipated, then advancement can be slowed.

Now, like I said, that is the easy way. So we did something different. We have "magic use feats": you need one to cast spells. And then need more to cast spells over 4th level. In addition to allowing spell casting, the feats have some other small benefits.

The net result: no complaining from players, still too many pc spellcasters, a spell-less ranger (who has multiclassed), a greater willingness to multiclass overall and--in a higher level mini campaing--a 12th level wizard, who did seem just a little less powerfull.

Of course, in my main campaign the players are starting to get up there in level, and those whacky spells are going to come out...but at least since the cleric and sorcerer have multiclassed (a little) it will be a few levels later.

 

[brehobit]

I want to second the idea that in a weak magic game (including items) a cleric X/Fighter X will be very powerful indeed. Same a few other combinations. Spells become the only realistic way to beat DR/magic until a pretty high-level.

In such a world I'd likely go with the Cleric/Fighter or perhaps Cleric/Paladin depending on how that would be treated.

Issues:
#1 Cost of magic items. Are you going to bump up the _costs_ (in gold or XP) to make items? Are you going to change the expected wealth? I think you have to cut money down considerably if you don't want everyone to have tons of minor magic items. Not sure how much, but I'd consider multiplying costs for items by the minimum caster level. So potions of CLW aren't any more expensive, but CMW would be twice as much. A +1 sword has a minimum of level 5 to be able to make (that's when you can take the feat right?) so it goes to 10,000. This would make very minor items _very_ common, so maybe just have a multiplier of (1+1/2 caster level) or perhaps (2+1/2 caster level). Charge that for item creation too. Really depends on the flavor you want.

#2 Monsters and CR. This is going to go out the window and you'll have to reevaluate every CR. Also caster level for monsters.

#3 Feats that improve effective caster level (max HD). Allowed? I'd probably go with yes.

Just some thoughts. Let us know how it goes, this might be the solution to how to do this in my (main) world. I've been looking at much more complex solutions, but this might work...

Mark

 

[blargney the second]

I want to second the idea that in a weak magic game (including items) a cleric X/Fighter X will be very powerful indeed. Same a few other combinations. Spells become the only realistic way to beat DR/magic until a pretty high-level.

In such a world I'd likely go with the Cleric/Fighter or perhaps Cleric/Paladin depending on how that would be treated.

Issues:
#1 Cost of magic items. Are you going to bump up the _costs_ (in gold or XP) to make items? Are you going to change the expected wealth? I think you have to cut money down considerably if you don't want everyone to have tons of minor magic items. Not sure how much, but I'd consider multiplying costs for items by the minimum caster level. So potions of CLW aren't any more expensive, but CMW would be twice as much. A +1 sword has a minimum of level 5 to be able to make (that's when you can take the feat right?) so it goes to 10,000. This would make very minor items _very_ common, so maybe just have a multiplier of (1+1/2 caster level) or perhaps (2+1/2 caster level). Charge that for item creation too. Really depends on the flavor you want.

#2 Monsters and CR. This is going to go out the window and you'll have to reevaluate every CR. Also caster level for monsters.

#3 Feats that improve effective caster level (max HD). Allowed? I'd probably go with yes.

Just some thoughts. Let us know how it goes, this might be the solution to how to do this in my (main) world. I've been looking at much more complex solutions, but this might work...

Those are some great questions, brehobit.

Magic Items: As an alternative to increasing costs, you can achieve the same effect by halving (or quartering for high level stuff) their availability. Then let them find magic items that are level-, character-, and wealth-appropriate in treasures they liberate from their green-skinned opponents.

Monsters: CR doesn't go out the window, but you do have to pay attention to some abilities in particular. DR, SR, spells, and SLAs are the biggies that stand out in my mind. My current group doesn't have anybody with Power Attack, so DR will be a particularly big hurdle for them. Monsters with strong offensive spells and SLAs and full caster level will outpace the healing available to the party. Halving monster caster levels across the board should level the field on that score. To maintain their CR, I'd give them a low-level benefit like a little Sneak Attack damage or a bonus feat.

Practised Spellcaster feat: I'm a little torn on that one. It's almost a mandatory feat if it's available, which makes me think it might be too powerful.

 

[brehobit]

Those are some great questions, brehobit.

Magic Items: As an alternative to increasing costs, you can achieve the same effect by halving (or quartering for high level stuff) their availability. Then let them find magic items that are level-, character-, and wealth-appropriate in treasures they liberate from their green-skinned opponents.

If you allow item creation feats, then A) PCs will make them and B) why doesn't every caster make items?

For A) you will see a ton of items appearing quickly. If magic items are otherwise rare, the party casters will quickly fill that void. If wealth and costs are kept constant and magic items are simply rare, what will the PCs spend money on?

I just think you need to address this with more than "items are less common". With PCs able to make items that goes away quickly....

 

[blargney the second]

I'm really interested in this discussion because it has direct bearing on my current campaign. Here's what we've established so far:
1) 1st level effects in single-use items are freely available to purchase at market value.
2) Very low level permanent items and 2nd level effects are harder to find, but can be purchased if you find them for sale.
3) Anything more powerful requires finding individuals that want to buy/trade/sell/craft. (requiring use of contacts and social skills, which can lead to good hooks)
4) PCs can create anything they are able to craft properly.

I'm toying with the idea of using a magic item escrow/broker agency (House Kundarak would probably work), but haven't fully thought out the implications of it.
-blarg

 

[Hussar]

Hrm, some ideas:

Skip the core caster classes in favor of warlock and favoured soul. That will keep your party magic down quite a bit. Perhaps warmage as well. No real need for level limits at all that way.

You can level as a caster up to a certain limit, say 7th, as normal. After 7th, you must "contemplate the universe" or some such thing for 1 year/level gained. That nicely keeps high level casters as NPC's while allowing them to actually exist.

Personally, I think the absolute easiest way is to simply limit the campaign to single digit levels, as I said before. That keeps a low magic campaign quite nicely.