A leveling way to limit access to magic?
- Thread starter Driddle
- Start date
I'm using a similar system and it works quite well. You have to ban certain prestige classes such as the mystic theurge and the eldritch knight.
I think this is another effect of the system. Not only will spellcasters be weaker, but some players that would otherwise play a spellcaster will choose non-spellcasters. So you will end up reducing the amount of PC magic twice. (I'm not saying that is good or bad, just that you should account for it.)
On the other hand, players might find spellcasters more attractive as a multiclass option. Your fighter might decide to be a fighter/cleric so there is more healing in the party.
Asmor said:
I think this is another effect of the system. Not only will spellcasters be weaker, but some players that would otherwise play a spellcaster will choose non-spellcasters. So you will end up reducing the amount of PC magic twice. (I'm not saying that is good or bad, just that you should account for it.)
On the other hand, players might find spellcasters more attractive as a multiclass option. Your fighter might decide to be a fighter/cleric so there is more healing in the party.
Depending on the amount of permanent and transient magic items spell casters might still be the most powerful characters in the game.
In a game with virtually no magic items a Fighter 4/Wizard 5 will be more powerful than a Fighter 9. Simply because he can make his weapon and armor magical, displace and mirror image himself and so on. In a game where they both have acces to a magic sword and some form of permanent AC enchancer they will be more even.
If the game is generally low magic, meaning that enemies usually dont have acces to magic too, any spellcasting PC will be empowered.
In short: The more magic exluded, the higher relative power of the magic actually included
Hussar
Legend
For a low magic game, this is probably a decent way to go. Might have to do a bit of working about to figure out if shopping for/paying someone to create magic items is possible.
Realistically, unless the campaign goes into the double digit levels, you likely won't notice much difference.
Realistically, unless the campaign goes into the double digit levels, you likely won't notice much difference.
delericho
Legend
Driddle said:
I would suggest instead that you word the limit as "your caster level in any class cannot exceed half of your character level (rounded up)".
This deals neatly with the Mystic Theurge loophole mentioned earlier, but it also means that a character who takes his first four levels in Fighter and then multiclasses to Cleric has the option of gaining his next few levels exclusively in Cleric to "catch up". That may, or may not, be desirable.
Oh, and I also probably wouldn't play in such a game. But that's just a matter of taste, rather than because what you're suggesting is inherently badwrongfun.
Agent Oracle
First Post
(Sigh) you know what would be an absolutely phenomenal suppliment for someone to make?
"The History of Vacan Magic" subtitle: "A study of advancements throughout the ages resulting in our modern magical spells"
The basic premise would be breaking Magic down into historical settings of progressively lower powered spells. much as how D20 future/modern/past offers Tech levels as a way of defining the era a story takes place in, this suppliment would offer Magic levels, as a way of defining the era in magical advancement.
For example: (grabs PHB, flips to a random spell) Disintegration! Well, the underlying theory of maic behind Disintegration is that the spell reduces it's target to it's component atoms, in the process scattering them. This spell relies on two things: knowledge of a point at which a body can no longer be divided, and awareness of the elements. now, elements have been around since the beginning, but the theory of all objects having a point at which theycan no longer be divided (the atomic level) was not concieved until the Greek philosophers. Hence, pre-greek games would not have the disintegration spell available. Thus, lowering the Magic level of the pre-greek era.
Umn, gimmie another example. Ah! magic stone. Arguably, this is one of the oldest spells known. Stones have long been available as weapons. Theoretically, this spell could date back as far as the paleolithic era, the first humanoid druidic shaman.
let me see if i can find a really, really "new" one in D&D terms... something that wouldn't exist until the medieval era that the D&D universe is so strongly adhered to...
hmm... Ahh! Bigby's spells. Yes, if the spell still has the name of it's caster attached to it, it must surely be fairly modern... After all, do we still call our aircraft "Wright Fliers"?
"The History of Vacan Magic" subtitle: "A study of advancements throughout the ages resulting in our modern magical spells"
The basic premise would be breaking Magic down into historical settings of progressively lower powered spells. much as how D20 future/modern/past offers Tech levels as a way of defining the era a story takes place in, this suppliment would offer Magic levels, as a way of defining the era in magical advancement.
For example: (grabs PHB, flips to a random spell) Disintegration! Well, the underlying theory of maic behind Disintegration is that the spell reduces it's target to it's component atoms, in the process scattering them. This spell relies on two things: knowledge of a point at which a body can no longer be divided, and awareness of the elements. now, elements have been around since the beginning, but the theory of all objects having a point at which theycan no longer be divided (the atomic level) was not concieved until the Greek philosophers. Hence, pre-greek games would not have the disintegration spell available. Thus, lowering the Magic level of the pre-greek era.
Umn, gimmie another example. Ah! magic stone. Arguably, this is one of the oldest spells known. Stones have long been available as weapons. Theoretically, this spell could date back as far as the paleolithic era, the first humanoid druidic shaman.
let me see if i can find a really, really "new" one in D&D terms... something that wouldn't exist until the medieval era that the D&D universe is so strongly adhered to...
hmm... Ahh! Bigby's spells. Yes, if the spell still has the name of it's caster attached to it, it must surely be fairly modern... After all, do we still call our aircraft "Wright Fliers"?
Hussar
Legend
Agent O, I'm not sure how tongue in cheek that was, but, y'know, I'd actually buy that supplement. That's a really, really cool idea.
Don't limit casters, just limit spell selection.
No raise dead before 1 BC. (Well, that's a bit iffy since the greeks had lots of them too, but...)
Control water would be a fairly old spell.
Shapechange, OTOH, and polymorphs as well could be pretty recent as the idea of families of animals is a fairly new one. (ok, pulling stuff out of my butt.)
Wall of iron is definitely a moderately recent spell.
You could bring in the idea of contacting other planes to control the energies is pretty recent. Fireball, for example, is a very controllable and modern seeming spell. It doesn't exactly occur in nature. Call lightning might be old, but, fireball is recent.
Ooo, while my brain is wandering, you could divide things up that way - divine magic, because it's gifted from the gods, is likely older. But, depending on the style of worship, some spells might be more recent than others. Sure, magic stone is very old, but implosion is very new.
Hrm... This could take some work. But, definitely a very, very cool idea. After all, we have periods for equipment, why not periods for spells as well?
Don't limit casters, just limit spell selection.
No raise dead before 1 BC. (Well, that's a bit iffy since the greeks had lots of them too, but...)
Control water would be a fairly old spell.
Shapechange, OTOH, and polymorphs as well could be pretty recent as the idea of families of animals is a fairly new one. (ok, pulling stuff out of my butt.)
Wall of iron is definitely a moderately recent spell.
You could bring in the idea of contacting other planes to control the energies is pretty recent. Fireball, for example, is a very controllable and modern seeming spell. It doesn't exactly occur in nature. Call lightning might be old, but, fireball is recent.
Ooo, while my brain is wandering, you could divide things up that way - divine magic, because it's gifted from the gods, is likely older. But, depending on the style of worship, some spells might be more recent than others. Sure, magic stone is very old, but implosion is very new.
Hrm... This could take some work. But, definitely a very, very cool idea. After all, we have periods for equipment, why not periods for spells as well?
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
/Moderator:
It would be helpful if people stick to the point of the question for this thread please.
If you think that it is a horrible sucktastic idea that would ruin your game, please don't bother to post that (thanks to Odhanan for clarifying his position on that, but no more from anyone else there please).
This is an idea that I first heard floated when people were discussing setting up a middle earth campaign with D&D rules, and I thought it was interesting then, as a campaign specific option.
So please - chip in with thoughts on the ramifications of this kind of decision, and additional options about how it could work, but no more suggestions to 'play other systems' or observations about how you would hate a game set up like that.
Thanks
It would be helpful if people stick to the point of the question for this thread please.
If you think that it is a horrible sucktastic idea that would ruin your game, please don't bother to post that (thanks to Odhanan for clarifying his position on that, but no more from anyone else there please).
This is an idea that I first heard floated when people were discussing setting up a middle earth campaign with D&D rules, and I thought it was interesting then, as a campaign specific option.
So please - chip in with thoughts on the ramifications of this kind of decision, and additional options about how it could work, but no more suggestions to 'play other systems' or observations about how you would hate a game set up like that.
Thanks
Agent Oracle said:
Like Hussar says, this is actually a very cool idea.
I would like it if a "Heroes of Magic" or suchlike was published which discussed how to modify the magic level of your game, and more fully spelled out the consequences thereof. I think the OPs game idea is probably workable, but there's so many knock-on effects (like how much harder it makes certain magical foes like Dragons, or how player wealth will look with msotly small magic items) that could really dow ith being quantified.
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